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>"I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Because men (biological males if we're being pedantic) are statistically overwhelmingly more likely to

>"I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Because men (biological males if we're being pedantic) are statistically overwhelmingly more likely to commit rape and other forms of sexual assault (and other violent crimes) and to be horny creepy perverted sex pests in general. Add to that the fact that men are much more physically strong than women (a ~5th percentile male is about as strong as a ~95th percentile female) and the options a woman has to defend themselves against such a creep are severely limited. But if you insist on creating a New Soviet Woman that isn't afraid of men, be my guest. Just do it far away from me in a different country, please.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Rebelgecko 5y ago
IMO bringing statistical likelihoods into it is a dangerous road to go down and could lead to some seriously problematic outcomes. For example, what if people in certain socioeconomic groups are more likely to commit rape? Or people of certain ethnicities? Would it make sense to require them to use separate bathrooms? Or is it only ok to slice and dice the stats based on certain characteristics? To me it's kind of a scary idea— just because a certain demographic is more likely to commit a crime doesn't mean we should make life difficult for all members of that demographic. Even if their facilities are, in theory, separate but equal.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  My rule for any of these things are all or nothing, in the margins lie chaos. I think a private business should be able to have as many or as few bathrooms for as many categories and groups as they feel like. But if you're going to block them from doing that, you'd better block them from splitting up bathrooms on any basis, otherwise all sorrs of special interest groups and lobbying groups will be looking to make special exceptions and cutouts that help their group and hurt their enemies, it's inevitable.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    All bathrooms should be a single private stall, first come first serve. If you need more than one stall, then install them. On average females take twice as long males in the bathroom. Sometimes some events have a disproportionate ratio of male/females. Both are evidence that having the same number of stalls for each of the two genders is wrong - even before talk about more than two genders.
stickfigure 5y ago
From a statistical perspective, black Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than white. Yet we got rid of white/colored restrooms, and claiming "I'm afraid of blacks" is rightly considered racist and offensive.
- CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
  The counter argument to this is that African Americans are more likely to commit crimes because they are, on average, more poor because of systemic racism, not because they are biologically predisposed to committing crimes.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Are you saying that it would be okay to have segregated restrooms if someone could prove a biological basis for the somewhat higher violent crime rate among black Americans? Because if you're not saying that, I don't see how this is a counter argument.
    - CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
      If you could find statistical evidence (controlled for income) that shows black Americans commit _insert violent crime_ at 9x [1] the rate of other races, then I would absolutely be in favor of taking steps that mitigated that crime happening. That's an extremely controversial thing to say, but the point is moot - as far as I am aware nobody has done such an analysis, and nobody wants to. However, there are plenty of species in which the males rape the women [2] because such a thing is simply advantageous from an evolutionary standpoint. [1] https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals
      - stickfigure 5y ago
        I want to unpack that statement to make sure I understand you correctly. Did you just say that if statistics show that black Americans commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than whites, controlling for income, you would be in favor of racially segregated restrooms? I personally find the idea of segregated restrooms to be incredibly offensive, no matter what the cause of this graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_Homicide_Offending_Rates_By_Race.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_Homicide_Offending_Ra... Looks like the homicide offender rate for blacks is 5X-8X for whites, depending on year. It isn't broken down by income but from my cursory knowledge of the statistics, that's not going to make the effect go away. We could explore the root causes of this but I really don't think they matter. Segregated restrooms have no place in a civilized society, full stop. As an aside, there are also plenty of species where females eat the males after mating. The problem with evolutionary arguments is that there's plenty of examples to choose from to advance any claim you'd like to make. We aren't those species.
makeworld 5y ago
Can't violent men just enter these bathrooms or dress up as women anyway? Rape is already a crime, no matter what gender you are. I don't see what a bathroom bill would meaningfully solve. Plus bathroom bills have already been shown to force trans men into women's washrooms.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Sure they still can, but without such a bill the women in the bathroom can't take actions like calling security until the man actually starts doing something violent/criminal/creepy/whatever. With such a bill their mere presence is enough.
  - makeworld 5y ago
    What if that man turns out to be a trans man, who's just obeying the bathroom bill?
    - HideousKojima 5y ago
      I think you're highly overestimating the rate at which trans people pass. In the rare cases that might happen it'd be easy enough to handle
dang 5y ago
Please don't post ideological flamewar comments to HN. We're trying for a different sort of internet here, to the extent possible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Rebelgecko 5y ago

IMO bringing statistical likelihoods into it is a dangerous road to go down and could lead to some seriously problematic outcomes. For example, what if people in certain socioeconomic groups are more likely to commit rape? Or people of certain ethnicities? Would it make sense to require them to use separate bathrooms? Or is it only ok to slice and dice the stats based on certain characteristics? To me it's kind of a scary idea— just because a certain demographic is more likely to commit a crime doesn't mean we should make life difficult for all members of that demographic. Even if their facilities are, in theory, separate but equal.

HideousKojima 5y ago
My rule for any of these things are all or nothing, in the margins lie chaos. I think a private business should be able to have as many or as few bathrooms for as many categories and groups as they feel like. But if you're going to block them from doing that, you'd better block them from splitting up bathrooms on any basis, otherwise all sorrs of special interest groups and lobbying groups will be looking to make special exceptions and cutouts that help their group and hurt their enemies, it's inevitable.
- bluGill 5y ago
  All bathrooms should be a single private stall, first come first serve. If you need more than one stall, then install them. On average females take twice as long males in the bathroom. Sometimes some events have a disproportionate ratio of male/females. Both are evidence that having the same number of stalls for each of the two genders is wrong - even before talk about more than two genders.

stickfigure 5y ago

From a statistical perspective, black Americans are more likely to commit violent crimes than white. Yet we got rid of white/colored restrooms, and claiming "I'm afraid of blacks" is rightly considered racist and offensive.

CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
The counter argument to this is that African Americans are more likely to commit crimes because they are, on average, more poor because of systemic racism, not because they are biologically predisposed to committing crimes.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Are you saying that it would be okay to have segregated restrooms if someone could prove a biological basis for the somewhat higher violent crime rate among black Americans? Because if you're not saying that, I don't see how this is a counter argument.
  - CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
    If you could find statistical evidence (controlled for income) that shows black Americans commit _insert violent crime_ at 9x [1] the rate of other races, then I would absolutely be in favor of taking steps that mitigated that crime happening. That's an extremely controversial thing to say, but the point is moot - as far as I am aware nobody has done such an analysis, and nobody wants to. However, there are plenty of species in which the males rape the women [2] because such a thing is simply advantageous from an evolutionary standpoint. [1] https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion_among_animals
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      I want to unpack that statement to make sure I understand you correctly. Did you just say that if statistics show that black Americans commit violent crimes at a much higher rate than whites, controlling for income, you would be in favor of racially segregated restrooms? I personally find the idea of segregated restrooms to be incredibly offensive, no matter what the cause of this graph: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_Homicide_Offending_Rates_By_Race.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USA_Homicide_Offending_Ra... Looks like the homicide offender rate for blacks is 5X-8X for whites, depending on year. It isn't broken down by income but from my cursory knowledge of the statistics, that's not going to make the effect go away. We could explore the root causes of this but I really don't think they matter. Segregated restrooms have no place in a civilized society, full stop. As an aside, there are also plenty of species where females eat the males after mating. The problem with evolutionary arguments is that there's plenty of examples to choose from to advance any claim you'd like to make. We aren't those species.

makeworld 5y ago

Can't violent men just enter these bathrooms or dress up as women anyway? Rape is already a crime, no matter what gender you are. I don't see what a bathroom bill would meaningfully solve. Plus bathroom bills have already been shown to force trans men into women's washrooms.

HideousKojima 5y ago
Sure they still can, but without such a bill the women in the bathroom can't take actions like calling security until the man actually starts doing something violent/criminal/creepy/whatever. With such a bill their mere presence is enough.
- makeworld 5y ago
  What if that man turns out to be a trans man, who's just obeying the bathroom bill?
  - HideousKojima 5y ago
    I think you're highly overestimating the rate at which trans people pass. In the rare cases that might happen it'd be easy enough to handle

dang 5y ago

Please don't post ideological flamewar comments to HN. We're trying for a different sort of internet here, to the extent possible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html