7 ms·

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

saxonww 5y ago
The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Attempts to separate sex from gender are prescriptive, not descriptive. And the academic who first attempted to separate their meanings was a child molester with strong personal and ideological motivations for doing so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
  - saxonww 5y ago
    This has no bearing on whether the idea is right or not, and shame on you for trying to shut down conversation by comparing adherents to child molesters.
    - mpfundstein 5y ago
      he didnt try to shut down the conversation, he just pointed out a fairly shocking truth about one of the first gender scholars
      - saxonww 5y ago
        Which was irrelevant, and intended to get people questioning whether thinking along the same lines would cause others to look at them the same way. "I don't want people to think I might be a child molester too... maybe I should keep these ideas to myself." It absolutely shuts down conversation.
  - delecti 5y ago
    Various societies throughout history have recognized gender identities as distinct from biological differences for about as long as there have been societies. That the modern English terms for those two categories emerged from academia is pretty irrelevant.
- tomp 5y ago
  But "gender" is a made-up concept with no clear (non-self-referential) definition, seemingly made up specifically to cause confusion and conflict. It's as if there were two concepts, "race" and "grace", and you could be "biologically" white but "identify" as black, or "height" and "gheight", and you could be "factually" 180cm tall but "identify" as 165cm.
  - rmah 5y ago
    Um... this actually makes no sense to me. Could you clarify or elaborate?
- MontyCarloHall 5y ago
  Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. A transgender person’s gender identity is hardwired (and opposite of their genetic sex and outward sex characteristics), which is strong evidence that gender is an innate physiological characteristic. It’s likely something neurological, since trans people’s obvious physiological characteristics (e.g. hormone levels and anatomy) are consistent with their genetic sex. (This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.)
  - munk-a 5y ago
    Although gender is not a binary concept. I honestly do think that gender is mostly a social construct but our definition of what it is is much better than it used to be - sterile men and barren women would often be considered outside of standard gender definitions since they couldn't "fulfill the intended role". I have problems on this front though, I'm pan myself and gender seems really insanely trivial to me - I do understand that my experience is not the common one though.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. Huh? How does that logically follow? (Hint: It doesn't.) Feels more like it's the other way around, that the existence of gender dysphoria proves that gender is a social (and psychological?) construct: If gender were always the same as biological sex, there would be no feeling of conflict between them. That some people do feel such a conflict shows that they are not always the same. Therefore they cannot both be purely biologically determined. Maybe it would be easier for you to grok if you thought of it not as “gender conflicting with itself”, but think of it as — privately rename it to — “sex-gender dysphoria”? > (This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.) On the contrary, that seems to be exactly what the TERFs don’t believe. They should just come out and admit that “if gender is a social construct, then we’re ‘feminists’ not in terms of female- gendered people but only in terms of people of female sex.” Which, since feminism is about the role of females in society, i.e. very much a social issue, would show them up as pretty damn silly... But that’s their problem.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  > gender _is_ a social construct. If gender is distinct from sex, then can you explain the qualifying characteristics of a "gender"? What is the definition of "woman"? What is the definition of "man"?
  - whateveracct 5y ago
    That's kind of the point. There isn't one. Wearing high heels isn't related to being a woman intrinsically, and you don't have to be a woman to wear high heels.
    - teakettle42 5y ago
      That’s largely the source of my confusion. The way I see it, either: - ‘gender’ is a synonym for ‘sex’ - ‘gender’ is being misused as a synonym ‘gender roles’, which are defined by one’s sex. If that’s not correct, then what is the actual correct definition of gender?
      - saxonww 5y ago
        I don't think I'm exactly right about this, but consider three sets of words: - man/woman - male/female - masculine/feminine There is a concept of grammatical gender, where words can be masculine or feminine (or neuter in some cases, and there are other systems as well with different words). You don't talk about man words or male words, it's masculine. So, I tend to think of gender as masculine or feminine. That covers most people (although not all: nonbinary, gender fluid, genderqueer, etc. are all real). I tend to think of sex as male or female. At least for human beings, that covers most people (not all, intersex is a real thing, and there are other unusual but 'natural' configurations as well) So one way to look at this - which again, is probably not exactly correct, but it's how I think - male/masculine and female/feminine are what we've traditionally thought of as man and woman. But, I think it's pretty clear now that we need to account for the other combinations, i.e. male/feminine and female/masculine. That's where cis- and trans- come in: male/masculine is a cis male, female/masculine is a trans male, both are subsets in the set of all men. Same with women. We've got nonbinary, genderqueer, etc. as well. I don't really understand the latter, but the former is pretty easy to explain: imagine being told you had to be masculine or feminine, and your response was "No, I don't. I prefer or reject some of each." Overall, to me, gender is about what you like and how you behave, while sex is more biology (i.e., what's in your pants). It's easier to understand the arguments if you completely separate gender from sex, and don't make assumptions about one based on the other. In fact, I think the assumptions - e.g. gender roles - are the entire problem, and if people would just stop with that, a lot of things would get better.
- cheeseomlit 5y ago
  This distinction doesn't sit right with me though. What is Gender really, in the modern definition (since it seems to have changed over the years)? From what I gather it's a way for people to tell others that one of their physical characteristics (Sex) does not match their mental state (Gender). To me this doesn't really seem like a positive thing, it comes off like a potentially harmful delusion from someone who can't come to terms with their own biology. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a feminine man or a masculine woman, people can behave however they wish regardless of biology. But the most feminine man on the planet is still a man and saying so shouldn't turn you into a pariah, it's true after all. Imagine we came up with 'Gender' like terms for other physical characteristics, it seems to me like the logic quickly breaks down when you think about it- Gender is to Sex as ____ is to Race as ____ is to Age as ____ is to Height as ____ is to Weight as ____ is to Eye Color etc.
  - MontyCarloHall 5y ago
    As I wrote in another comment, trans individuals’ gender identity is hardwired to the same extent that people’s sexual orientation is hardwired, so there must be some innate physiological component to gender identity. My guess is it’s neurological, since there aren’t discernible hormonal, genetic, or anatomical differences between trans and cis people. Your analogies don’t apply because, with the exception of age (mental age vs. physical age), there is no mental analog to race, height, eye color, etc. I’d analogize gender identity to sexual orientation: there is nothing physiological that distinguishes heterosexual people from homosexual people, but the former are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, while the latter are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex.
    - cheeseomlit 5y ago
      >Your analogies don’t apply because, with the exception of age (mental age vs. physical age), there is no mental analog to race, height, eye color, etc. Why? What specifically makes transrace/race-identity any less valid of a concept than transgender/gender-identity? You say there is no mental analog to race but there's just as much proof of that as there is for gender identity. I've always loved african-american music and culture, I use black slang a lot, I felt like I didn't fit in with my white peers growing up- maybe I identify as black and will designate myself as such on my job/college applications going forward. Who are you to tell me my race-identity isn't valid? Maybe I'm just hardwired that way. >I’d analogize gender identity to sexual orientation: there is nothing physiological that distinguishes heterosexual people from homosexual people, but the former are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, while the latter are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex. If there is nothing physiological to make that determination I think 'hardwired' isn't the right term
zehnfischer 5y ago
Well, while it could be argued that sex is biological given, it is surely that our society overstates the difference between men and women - plus our current society still aims to standardises / normalizes all other sexes. The social meaning of being male, of being female etc. is still socially constructed and therefore which sex you are born into has measurable impact on your life, your chances in terms of career.
mike00632 5y ago
Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?
- LanceH 5y ago
  Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?
  - mike00632 5y ago
    I think it's pretty clear that other people's preference for nicknames (or gender pronouns) are not a burden on you and your insistance to call people by the wrong name (or gender) is for some other reason. That was my point. This isn't about trans people causing undue burden on you.
    - turfwars2 5y ago
      Pretending people are not the biological sex they actually are, to me that's an undue burden. I don't have to pretend a furry is an actual dog. The truth, evidential truth about the World, is central to my identity; why do I have to yield my identity to others? You identify as the third coming of Moses, well that's nice for you, why do I have to get involved in your delusion? You're a male that feels like a female, well ok, why do I need to care again?
      - mike00632 5y ago
        You don't have to pretend. Nobody thinks my name is actually "Mike" but if I ask you to call me that instead of "Michael" then what is it to you? And if you really feel that your gender is being intruded upon by trans people then i encourage you to find something more meaningful and unique to attach your identity to, because your manhood feeling threatened is not a respectable reason to deny trans people their identity.

saxonww 5y ago

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now. Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

HideousKojima 5y ago
Attempts to separate sex from gender are prescriptive, not descriptive. And the academic who first attempted to separate their meanings was a child molester with strong personal and ideological motivations for doing so: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money
- saxonww 5y ago
  This has no bearing on whether the idea is right or not, and shame on you for trying to shut down conversation by comparing adherents to child molesters.
  - mpfundstein 5y ago
    he didnt try to shut down the conversation, he just pointed out a fairly shocking truth about one of the first gender scholars
    - saxonww 5y ago
      Which was irrelevant, and intended to get people questioning whether thinking along the same lines would cause others to look at them the same way. "I don't want people to think I might be a child molester too... maybe I should keep these ideas to myself." It absolutely shuts down conversation.
- delecti 5y ago
  Various societies throughout history have recognized gender identities as distinct from biological differences for about as long as there have been societies. That the modern English terms for those two categories emerged from academia is pretty irrelevant.
tomp 5y ago
But "gender" is a made-up concept with no clear (non-self-referential) definition, seemingly made up specifically to cause confusion and conflict. It's as if there were two concepts, "race" and "grace", and you could be "biologically" white but "identify" as black, or "height" and "gheight", and you could be "factually" 180cm tall but "identify" as 165cm.
- rmah 5y ago
  Um... this actually makes no sense to me. Could you clarify or elaborate?
MontyCarloHall 5y ago
Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. A transgender person’s gender identity is hardwired (and opposite of their genetic sex and outward sex characteristics), which is strong evidence that gender is an innate physiological characteristic. It’s likely something neurological, since trans people’s obvious physiological characteristics (e.g. hormone levels and anatomy) are consistent with their genetic sex. (This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.)
- munk-a 5y ago
  Although gender is not a binary concept. I honestly do think that gender is mostly a social construct but our definition of what it is is much better than it used to be - sterile men and barren women would often be considered outside of standard gender definitions since they couldn't "fulfill the intended role". I have problems on this front though, I'm pan myself and gender seems really insanely trivial to me - I do understand that my experience is not the common one though.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Certain gender roles are social constructs, but gender as a whole cannot be a social construct because gender dysphoria exists. Huh? How does that logically follow? (Hint: It doesn't.) Feels more like it's the other way around, that the existence of gender dysphoria proves that gender is a social (and psychological?) construct: If gender were always the same as biological sex, there would be no feeling of conflict between them. That some people do feel such a conflict shows that they are not always the same. Therefore they cannot both be purely biologically determined. Maybe it would be easier for you to grok if you thought of it not as “gender conflicting with itself”, but think of it as — privately rename it to — “sex-gender dysphoria”? > (This is why trans-exclusionary feminists exist, because the existence of trans people nullifies their belief that gender is 100% a social construct.) On the contrary, that seems to be exactly what the TERFs don’t believe. They should just come out and admit that “if gender is a social construct, then we’re ‘feminists’ not in terms of female- gendered people but only in terms of people of female sex.” Which, since feminism is about the role of females in society, i.e. very much a social issue, would show them up as pretty damn silly... But that’s their problem.
teakettle42 5y ago
> gender _is_ a social construct. If gender is distinct from sex, then can you explain the qualifying characteristics of a "gender"? What is the definition of "woman"? What is the definition of "man"?
- whateveracct 5y ago
  That's kind of the point. There isn't one. Wearing high heels isn't related to being a woman intrinsically, and you don't have to be a woman to wear high heels.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    That’s largely the source of my confusion. The way I see it, either: - ‘gender’ is a synonym for ‘sex’ - ‘gender’ is being misused as a synonym ‘gender roles’, which are defined by one’s sex. If that’s not correct, then what is the actual correct definition of gender?
    - saxonww 5y ago
      I don't think I'm exactly right about this, but consider three sets of words: - man/woman - male/female - masculine/feminine There is a concept of grammatical gender, where words can be masculine or feminine (or neuter in some cases, and there are other systems as well with different words). You don't talk about man words or male words, it's masculine. So, I tend to think of gender as masculine or feminine. That covers most people (although not all: nonbinary, gender fluid, genderqueer, etc. are all real). I tend to think of sex as male or female. At least for human beings, that covers most people (not all, intersex is a real thing, and there are other unusual but 'natural' configurations as well) So one way to look at this - which again, is probably not exactly correct, but it's how I think - male/masculine and female/feminine are what we've traditionally thought of as man and woman. But, I think it's pretty clear now that we need to account for the other combinations, i.e. male/feminine and female/masculine. That's where cis- and trans- come in: male/masculine is a cis male, female/masculine is a trans male, both are subsets in the set of all men. Same with women. We've got nonbinary, genderqueer, etc. as well. I don't really understand the latter, but the former is pretty easy to explain: imagine being told you had to be masculine or feminine, and your response was "No, I don't. I prefer or reject some of each." Overall, to me, gender is about what you like and how you behave, while sex is more biology (i.e., what's in your pants). It's easier to understand the arguments if you completely separate gender from sex, and don't make assumptions about one based on the other. In fact, I think the assumptions - e.g. gender roles - are the entire problem, and if people would just stop with that, a lot of things would get better.
cheeseomlit 5y ago
This distinction doesn't sit right with me though. What is Gender really, in the modern definition (since it seems to have changed over the years)? From what I gather it's a way for people to tell others that one of their physical characteristics (Sex) does not match their mental state (Gender). To me this doesn't really seem like a positive thing, it comes off like a potentially harmful delusion from someone who can't come to terms with their own biology. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a feminine man or a masculine woman, people can behave however they wish regardless of biology. But the most feminine man on the planet is still a man and saying so shouldn't turn you into a pariah, it's true after all. Imagine we came up with 'Gender' like terms for other physical characteristics, it seems to me like the logic quickly breaks down when you think about it- Gender is to Sex as ____ is to Race as ____ is to Age as ____ is to Height as ____ is to Weight as ____ is to Eye Color etc.
- MontyCarloHall 5y ago
  As I wrote in another comment, trans individuals’ gender identity is hardwired to the same extent that people’s sexual orientation is hardwired, so there must be some innate physiological component to gender identity. My guess is it’s neurological, since there aren’t discernible hormonal, genetic, or anatomical differences between trans and cis people. Your analogies don’t apply because, with the exception of age (mental age vs. physical age), there is no mental analog to race, height, eye color, etc. I’d analogize gender identity to sexual orientation: there is nothing physiological that distinguishes heterosexual people from homosexual people, but the former are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, while the latter are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex.
  - cheeseomlit 5y ago
    >Your analogies don’t apply because, with the exception of age (mental age vs. physical age), there is no mental analog to race, height, eye color, etc. Why? What specifically makes transrace/race-identity any less valid of a concept than transgender/gender-identity? You say there is no mental analog to race but there's just as much proof of that as there is for gender identity. I've always loved african-american music and culture, I use black slang a lot, I felt like I didn't fit in with my white peers growing up- maybe I identify as black and will designate myself as such on my job/college applications going forward. Who are you to tell me my race-identity isn't valid? Maybe I'm just hardwired that way. >I’d analogize gender identity to sexual orientation: there is nothing physiological that distinguishes heterosexual people from homosexual people, but the former are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex, while the latter are hardwired to be sexually attracted to members of the same sex. If there is nothing physiological to make that determination I think 'hardwired' isn't the right term

zehnfischer 5y ago

Well, while it could be argued that sex is biological given, it is surely that our society overstates the difference between men and women - plus our current society still aims to standardises / normalizes all other sexes. The social meaning of being male, of being female etc. is still socially constructed and therefore which sex you are born into has measurable impact on your life, your chances in terms of career.

mike00632 5y ago

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

LanceH 5y ago
Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?
- mike00632 5y ago
  I think it's pretty clear that other people's preference for nicknames (or gender pronouns) are not a burden on you and your insistance to call people by the wrong name (or gender) is for some other reason. That was my point. This isn't about trans people causing undue burden on you.
  - turfwars2 5y ago
    Pretending people are not the biological sex they actually are, to me that's an undue burden. I don't have to pretend a furry is an actual dog. The truth, evidential truth about the World, is central to my identity; why do I have to yield my identity to others? You identify as the third coming of Moses, well that's nice for you, why do I have to get involved in your delusion? You're a male that feels like a female, well ok, why do I need to care again?
    - mike00632 5y ago
      You don't have to pretend. Nobody thinks my name is actually "Mike" but if I ask you to call me that instead of "Michael" then what is it to you? And if you really feel that your gender is being intruded upon by trans people then i encourage you to find something more meaningful and unique to attach your identity to, because your manhood feeling threatened is not a respectable reason to deny trans people their identity.