5 ms·

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to fema

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer many more women more protection from more pervasive threats it sounds suspiciously more like a "talking point" against the target group than a practical solution to sexual violence in prisons. Especially if the campaign groups responsible have long lists of other issues with transpeople, and somehow the sexual activity involving people with penises and keys doesn't get the same attention...

MyHypatia 5y ago
I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.
- jolux 5y ago
  Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    These are true statements. Cis-women can be raped and impregnated by people with penises is also a true statement. Perhaps the complete solution is to house all in-mates in separate cells regardless of sex or gender. I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward.
    - jolux 5y ago
      > I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward. You keep combining impregnation and sexual assault as if they're the same thing. Cis women are already sexually assaulted by other cis women in prisons! This is not a problem created anew by housing trans women in women's prisons. I venture that the problem is not trans women, the problem is the assumption that prisons cannot stop inmates from sexually assaulting each other.
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        Impregnation and sexual assault are obviously not the same thing, and I am not combining them as if they are. Housing cis-women and trans-women creates a unique situation where cis-women can be sexually assaulted AND impregnated. I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. Housing cis-women and trans-women in the same cell does not stop the sexual assault problem.
        jolux 5y ago
        > I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. In that case you're hard pressed to argue why housing trans women in women's prisons exacerbates this issue, unless you think trans women are more likely to be rapists. Excluding an entire population on the basis that some of them might rape people is not just if rape is already a problem. > To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. I mostly agree, but it's very easy to construct a solution to these problems while ignoring the present reality. Almost no trans people are currently housed in prisons that accord with their gender identity, and 35% of trans people in prisons themselves report having been sexually assaulted in the past year as of 2015 [1]. The status quo is pretty dire for them too, and their safety should be weighed against the safety of the cis people they might otherwise be housed with. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-ar...
worik 5y ago
The prison debate is a red herring People who run prisons are often sadists. In double bunked men's prisons rapists get to ply their trade. Get double bunked along with the rest.
hackinthebochs 5y ago
>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of abuse for women in women prisons. If I were being locked up for an extended period of time and all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison, I would do it. I would go from one of the smaller and weaker inmates to one of the biggest and strongest. It is a no-brainer in terms of my personal safety. And I have no interest in abusing anyone or taking advantage of forced-proximity. Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? An argument in defense of gender-affirmation in prison assignments that doesn't accommodate this likely reality isn't substantive.
- omegaworks 5y ago
  >all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison That's not at all what it takes. >Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons. That the real problem of sexual violence is focused and framed wholly and entirely on trans women is exactly the point made by the parent: this is an entirely disingenuous effort by people wholly uninterested in actually preventing the real, existing, non-imagined abuses in women's prisons and more interested in enforcing a strict gender binary that harms both cis and trans women.
  - hackinthebochs 5y ago
    >That's not at all what it takes. In fact, it is all it takes in some jurisdictions[1] >Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons. This is a disingenuous reply. The issue of abuse is colored by the difficulty in mitigation, i.e. available funds to significantly alter prisons, increase guards, etc. The fact that existing abuse has no easy, cost-effective solutions is not an argument against preventing the likely increase in abuse due to policy changes which are comparatively low-cost. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/california-prisons-consider-gender-identity-housing-requests https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/californ...

MyHypatia 5y ago

I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.

jolux 5y ago
Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  These are true statements. Cis-women can be raped and impregnated by people with penises is also a true statement. Perhaps the complete solution is to house all in-mates in separate cells regardless of sex or gender. I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward.
  - jolux 5y ago
    > I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward. You keep combining impregnation and sexual assault as if they're the same thing. Cis women are already sexually assaulted by other cis women in prisons! This is not a problem created anew by housing trans women in women's prisons. I venture that the problem is not trans women, the problem is the assumption that prisons cannot stop inmates from sexually assaulting each other.
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      Impregnation and sexual assault are obviously not the same thing, and I am not combining them as if they are. Housing cis-women and trans-women creates a unique situation where cis-women can be sexually assaulted AND impregnated. I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. Housing cis-women and trans-women in the same cell does not stop the sexual assault problem.
      - jolux 5y ago
        > I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. In that case you're hard pressed to argue why housing trans women in women's prisons exacerbates this issue, unless you think trans women are more likely to be rapists. Excluding an entire population on the basis that some of them might rape people is not just if rape is already a problem. > To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. I mostly agree, but it's very easy to construct a solution to these problems while ignoring the present reality. Almost no trans people are currently housed in prisons that accord with their gender identity, and 35% of trans people in prisons themselves report having been sexually assaulted in the past year as of 2015 [1]. The status quo is pretty dire for them too, and their safety should be weighed against the safety of the cis people they might otherwise be housed with. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-ar...

worik 5y ago

The prison debate is a red herring People who run prisons are often sadists. In double bunked men's prisons rapists get to ply their trade. Get double bunked along with the rest.

hackinthebochs 5y ago

>but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third Here's the problem I have with this line of defense: it doesn't accommodate the reality of self-id and the likely downstream effects if it becomes the accepted norm. If all it takes for a male to be housed in a female prison is a checkmark on a form, we should expect that many cis-men will take advantage of the situation, thus creating a very real threat of abuse for women in women prisons. If I were being locked up for an extended period of time and all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison, I would do it. I would go from one of the smaller and weaker inmates to one of the biggest and strongest. It is a no-brainer in terms of my personal safety. And I have no interest in abusing anyone or taking advantage of forced-proximity. Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? An argument in defense of gender-affirmation in prison assignments that doesn't accommodate this likely reality isn't substantive.

omegaworks 5y ago
>all it took was a declaration to be housed in a female prison That's not at all what it takes. >Imagine how many abusers would take advantage of that circumstance? Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons. That the real problem of sexual violence is focused and framed wholly and entirely on trans women is exactly the point made by the parent: this is an entirely disingenuous effort by people wholly uninterested in actually preventing the real, existing, non-imagined abuses in women's prisons and more interested in enforcing a strict gender binary that harms both cis and trans women.
- hackinthebochs 5y ago
  >That's not at all what it takes. In fact, it is all it takes in some jurisdictions[1] >Imagine how many abusers already take advantage of the power they already have over women in women's prisons. This is a disingenuous reply. The issue of abuse is colored by the difficulty in mitigation, i.e. available funds to significantly alter prisons, increase guards, etc. The fact that existing abuse has no easy, cost-effective solutions is not an argument against preventing the likely increase in abuse due to policy changes which are comparatively low-cost. [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/california-prisons-consider-gender-identity-housing-requests https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-04-05/californ...