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I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that perso

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither feel threatened with rape, nor impose that threat on cis-women. I think referring to this fear as a "TERF talking point" is as disrespectful as it would be to minimize the fear that trans-women experience in men's prisons.

throwawayboise 5y ago
You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  No, you don't have to place them in solitary confinement. You can place them with other trans-women. Men are housed with men in jails. Yes, sometimes they commit violence against each other, including rape. But we don't put all men in solitary confinement.
  - Latty 5y ago
    This begs the question of why it is acceptable for men and trans women to be raped, but unacceptable for cis women to be raped? There is no justification for accepting any prison rape—or, for that matter, sexual assault, which cis women are entirely capable of. (And, to be clear, sexual assault is not inherently a lesser crime than rape, rape is just a specific form of sexual assault, and depending on jurisdiction, may be defined in such a way as a cis woman can be a rapist).
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      It is not acceptable for men nor trans-women nor cis-women nor anyone to be raped in prison. My comment does not condone rape. If you think that all men and all trans-women should have separate cells to prevent this possibility, I think that could be a positive step forward. I do not think that subjecting cis-women to the fear of rape is a positive step forward.
      - nepeckman 5y ago
        There is no evidence that trans women are more a threat to cis women than cis women are to each other. If a cis women is afraid of being assaulted by a trans women, that is a fear rooted in bigotry, not reality. If the individual in question is a convicted rapist, than precautions should be taken regardless of that persons genitals or gender to make sure they dont assault anyone else. Prison rape is horrific and needs to be addressed, and concern trolling about trans women doesnt help anyone and does hurt public perception of trans women.
        MyHypatia 5y ago
        The fear of being impregnated from a sexual assault is not rooted in bigotry. It places cis-women in a very uncomfortable position of having to birth and raise a child created from sexual assault or have an abortion. This is not concern trolling. It is a very real fear. Prison rape is horrific for everyone, not just cis-women. It is horrific for men and trans-men and trans-women as well. Housing cis-women with intact trans-women does not solve or address the prison rape problem.
        nepeckman 5y ago
        > It places cis-women in a very uncomfortable position of having to birth and raise a child created from sexual assault or have an abortion. I want to be very clear: I do not want this to happen. I don't want any woman to be raped, especially not impregnated as well. But my point still stands: this does not happen on any sort of regular basis. I do not think you're arguing in bad faith here, and I hope you see that I'm not either. Segregating trans women from cis women does nothing to protect cis women. Implementing this segregation across the prison system would not impact the occurrence of prison rape by half a percent. But by insisting that trans women are a threat to cis women, you are hurting trans women. You are playing into and amplifying a very popular narrative in our society that trans women are deceptive, dangerous predators. And this leads to legislation that harms the whole trans community.
- Latty 5y ago
  Even beyond that, a cis woman can sexually assault another woman (Rape has different definitions depending on where you are, but clearly the distinction is irrelevant—sexual assault isn't inherently of a different impact, just different exact actions). It's the exact same argument that was used as justification to try and criminalise homosexuality, that they would all be assaulting people in bathrooms, changing rooms, and prisons.
- baldanders 5y ago
  By that line of reasoning every inmate should be held in solitary confinement by virtue of the fact that rape is possible between every possible pair of gender identities.
notahacker 5y ago
Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer many more women more protection from more pervasive threats it sounds suspiciously more like a "talking point" against the target group than a practical solution to sexual violence in prisons. Especially if the campaign groups responsible have long lists of other issues with transpeople, and somehow the sexual activity involving people with penises and keys doesn't get the same attention...
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.
  - jolux 5y ago
    Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      These are true statements. Cis-women can be raped and impregnated by people with penises is also a true statement. Perhaps the complete solution is to house all in-mates in separate cells regardless of sex or gender. I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward.
      - jolux 5y ago
        > I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward. You keep combining impregnation and sexual assault as if they're the same thing. Cis women are already sexually assaulted by other cis women in prisons! This is not a problem created anew by housing trans women in women's prisons. I venture that the problem is not trans women, the problem is the assumption that prisons cannot stop inmates from sexually assaulting each other.
throwaway675309 5y ago
Additionally if you only have to vocally identify as a woman without having to take any further steps (Hormone replacement, srs, etc) this seems exploitable.
- freemint 5y ago
  While you are throwaway I am still gonna remind you of "assuming good faith" is one of core tenants of hn. Other things that are exploitable: driving vans/cars in cities as they can be driven into crowds. I agree that it is thinkable that some people might want to exploit these rules. However I haven't seen anything that suggest abuse will be rampant enough and not be able to be dealt using existing laws and shaming exploiters. So I think we should give trans people their rights and deal with perverts and abuser separately. A cost on switching can be imposed but it shouldn't make it more stigmatising or harder on trans people ideally.
  - fastball 5y ago
    How would you see anything to suggest abuse will be rampant before the abuse is even viable? There have already been people I would describe as attempting to abuse[1] the nascent systems that do exist. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/23/canadian-transgender-woman-loses-case-against-beauticians-refused/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/23/canadian-transge...
brandmeyer 5y ago
Alternatively, this could be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. No inmate, no matter how heinous their crimes, should be subjected to sexual assault. The prevalence and sexual assault in prisons is an example of a normalization of deviance that should be opposed, instead of tolerated.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  I agree that it can be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. My comment does not normalize or tolerate sexual assault.
SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  Yes, because women can get pregnant. Then not only do you have to deal with trauma of your sexual assault, you have to deal with the trauma of having a child born from that sexual assault or have an abortion.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    So, if someone were infertile it would reduce the threat and be acceptable? You said intact, not fertile.
- vmception 5y ago
  Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does not result in pregnancy
  - freemint 5y ago
    In good faith and not as whataboutism: Do you think being forced to impregnate someone against your will is similarly horrific although less burdensome for the first 9 months?
    - vmception 5y ago
      Yes What circumstance made you think of that?
  - 5y ago
tomp 5y ago
Why would trans women have any greater fear of rape (by men) than (smaller, weaker) men have?
- fastball 5y ago
  I can't really speak to the psychology of rapists in prisons, but I imagine there are a good number of people that, if they're gonna rape someone with a penis anyway, it is more enjoyable to rape the person that is presenting as a woman. Also because rape in prison is very much about power, and exerting power over people you dislike for one reason or another (in this case trans people because they are trans) especially.
- mkl 5y ago
  There are a lot more straight male rapists than non-straight male rapists, just because there are a lot more straight people. Yes, there is also situational homosexuality, but trans women change the situation.
watwut 5y ago
Trans people are way more likely to be raped then non trans. And cis women do get attacked by trans men. Like, if your concern is prison rape, it is quite odd to start with lowest probability events and ignore high probability events.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  My comment was in response to the parent comment referring to cis-women's concerns as "TERF talking points". I am saying that cis-women's concerns shouldn't be invalidated, and that we can figure out a path forward that acknowledges the threat that trans-women may face in men's prisons and also acknowledge the threat that cis-women may face being cell mates with a person who has a penis. Basically, I think that sexual assault in prisons should be taken far more seriously for everyone. That may mean every prisoner should get their own cell regardless of sex or gender. I don't think housing cis-women and intact trans-women in the same cell alleviates this.
  - watwut 5y ago
    I am cis woman. I happened to look at prisom rape and sexual violence statistics a while ago. The trans men in jail abusing cis women is real thing. They are housed together now. The trans women being raped or abused is incredibly frequent thing - includig by guards. (Male on male rape is a joke, basically. Transwomen in prison are assumed to enjoy sexual abuse basically.) But despite the former being literally about cis women safety too, it just dont interest people. There are many ways to make prisons safer and making it so trans women or gender non conforming men are a bit safer is topic only for radical trans activists and no one else. If there is heated discussion about issue that dont currently exist which ignores issues that do cureently exist, it is ok to call it talking point.
plank_time 5y ago
In the UK prisons, transgender women sexually assault women 5x more than cis women sexually assault women. https://archive.is/iYD5T https://archive.is/iYD5T
- nepeckman 5y ago
  If you read the article you linked, you will find that is not true. From the article: "between 2016 and 2020, there were seven sexual assaults against females in women's prisons by trans women." 7 assaults in 4 years is not 5x more. If you are referring to the statistic that "trans inmates are 1% of the population and commit 5.6% of the assaults", you will find that the trans inmates in question are actually trans men being incorrectly housed in women's prisons.
- robocat 5y ago
  From article: “there were 125 trans prisoners in 2017, 60 of whom were serving sentences for sexual offences. Of those 60, 27 were serving a prison sentence for rape.” which is more shocking than your 5x statistic. Note the 5x statistic appears weak to me because “Between 2016 and 2020, there were seven sexual assaults [reported] against females in women's prisons by trans women.”.
noobermin 5y ago
Given rape is a fear in general (women without penises can rape, you know) may be people shouldn't share sleeping quarters.

throwawayboise 5y ago

You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.

MyHypatia 5y ago
No, you don't have to place them in solitary confinement. You can place them with other trans-women. Men are housed with men in jails. Yes, sometimes they commit violence against each other, including rape. But we don't put all men in solitary confinement.
- Latty 5y ago
  This begs the question of why it is acceptable for men and trans women to be raped, but unacceptable for cis women to be raped? There is no justification for accepting any prison rape—or, for that matter, sexual assault, which cis women are entirely capable of. (And, to be clear, sexual assault is not inherently a lesser crime than rape, rape is just a specific form of sexual assault, and depending on jurisdiction, may be defined in such a way as a cis woman can be a rapist).
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    It is not acceptable for men nor trans-women nor cis-women nor anyone to be raped in prison. My comment does not condone rape. If you think that all men and all trans-women should have separate cells to prevent this possibility, I think that could be a positive step forward. I do not think that subjecting cis-women to the fear of rape is a positive step forward.
    - nepeckman 5y ago
      There is no evidence that trans women are more a threat to cis women than cis women are to each other. If a cis women is afraid of being assaulted by a trans women, that is a fear rooted in bigotry, not reality. If the individual in question is a convicted rapist, than precautions should be taken regardless of that persons genitals or gender to make sure they dont assault anyone else. Prison rape is horrific and needs to be addressed, and concern trolling about trans women doesnt help anyone and does hurt public perception of trans women.
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        The fear of being impregnated from a sexual assault is not rooted in bigotry. It places cis-women in a very uncomfortable position of having to birth and raise a child created from sexual assault or have an abortion. This is not concern trolling. It is a very real fear. Prison rape is horrific for everyone, not just cis-women. It is horrific for men and trans-men and trans-women as well. Housing cis-women with intact trans-women does not solve or address the prison rape problem.
        nepeckman 5y ago
        > It places cis-women in a very uncomfortable position of having to birth and raise a child created from sexual assault or have an abortion. I want to be very clear: I do not want this to happen. I don't want any woman to be raped, especially not impregnated as well. But my point still stands: this does not happen on any sort of regular basis. I do not think you're arguing in bad faith here, and I hope you see that I'm not either. Segregating trans women from cis women does nothing to protect cis women. Implementing this segregation across the prison system would not impact the occurrence of prison rape by half a percent. But by insisting that trans women are a threat to cis women, you are hurting trans women. You are playing into and amplifying a very popular narrative in our society that trans women are deceptive, dangerous predators. And this leads to legislation that harms the whole trans community.
Latty 5y ago
Even beyond that, a cis woman can sexually assault another woman (Rape has different definitions depending on where you are, but clearly the distinction is irrelevant—sexual assault isn't inherently of a different impact, just different exact actions). It's the exact same argument that was used as justification to try and criminalise homosexuality, that they would all be assaulting people in bathrooms, changing rooms, and prisons.
baldanders 5y ago
By that line of reasoning every inmate should be held in solitary confinement by virtue of the fact that rape is possible between every possible pair of gender identities.

notahacker 5y ago

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer many more women more protection from more pervasive threats it sounds suspiciously more like a "talking point" against the target group than a practical solution to sexual violence in prisons. Especially if the campaign groups responsible have long lists of other issues with transpeople, and somehow the sexual activity involving people with penises and keys doesn't get the same attention...

MyHypatia 5y ago
I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.
- jolux 5y ago
  Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    These are true statements. Cis-women can be raped and impregnated by people with penises is also a true statement. Perhaps the complete solution is to house all in-mates in separate cells regardless of sex or gender. I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward.
    - jolux 5y ago
      > I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward. You keep combining impregnation and sexual assault as if they're the same thing. Cis women are already sexually assaulted by other cis women in prisons! This is not a problem created anew by housing trans women in women's prisons. I venture that the problem is not trans women, the problem is the assumption that prisons cannot stop inmates from sexually assaulting each other.

throwaway675309 5y ago

Additionally if you only have to vocally identify as a woman without having to take any further steps (Hormone replacement, srs, etc) this seems exploitable.

freemint 5y ago
While you are throwaway I am still gonna remind you of "assuming good faith" is one of core tenants of hn. Other things that are exploitable: driving vans/cars in cities as they can be driven into crowds. I agree that it is thinkable that some people might want to exploit these rules. However I haven't seen anything that suggest abuse will be rampant enough and not be able to be dealt using existing laws and shaming exploiters. So I think we should give trans people their rights and deal with perverts and abuser separately. A cost on switching can be imposed but it shouldn't make it more stigmatising or harder on trans people ideally.
- fastball 5y ago
  How would you see anything to suggest abuse will be rampant before the abuse is even viable? There have already been people I would describe as attempting to abuse[1] the nascent systems that do exist. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/23/canadian-transgender-woman-loses-case-against-beauticians-refused/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/23/canadian-transge...

brandmeyer 5y ago

Alternatively, this could be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. No inmate, no matter how heinous their crimes, should be subjected to sexual assault. The prevalence and sexual assault in prisons is an example of a normalization of deviance that should be opposed, instead of tolerated.

MyHypatia 5y ago
I agree that it can be an opportunity to address sexual assault in prisons more broadly. My comment does not normalize or tolerate sexual assault.

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

MyHypatia 5y ago
Yes, because women can get pregnant. Then not only do you have to deal with trauma of your sexual assault, you have to deal with the trauma of having a child born from that sexual assault or have an abortion.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  So, if someone were infertile it would reduce the threat and be acceptable? You said intact, not fertile.
vmception 5y ago
Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does not result in pregnancy
- freemint 5y ago
  In good faith and not as whataboutism: Do you think being forced to impregnate someone against your will is similarly horrific although less burdensome for the first 9 months?
  - vmception 5y ago
    Yes What circumstance made you think of that?
- 5y ago

tomp 5y ago

Why would trans women have any greater fear of rape (by men) than (smaller, weaker) men have?

fastball 5y ago
I can't really speak to the psychology of rapists in prisons, but I imagine there are a good number of people that, if they're gonna rape someone with a penis anyway, it is more enjoyable to rape the person that is presenting as a woman. Also because rape in prison is very much about power, and exerting power over people you dislike for one reason or another (in this case trans people because they are trans) especially.
mkl 5y ago
There are a lot more straight male rapists than non-straight male rapists, just because there are a lot more straight people. Yes, there is also situational homosexuality, but trans women change the situation.

watwut 5y ago

Trans people are way more likely to be raped then non trans. And cis women do get attacked by trans men. Like, if your concern is prison rape, it is quite odd to start with lowest probability events and ignore high probability events.

MyHypatia 5y ago
My comment was in response to the parent comment referring to cis-women's concerns as "TERF talking points". I am saying that cis-women's concerns shouldn't be invalidated, and that we can figure out a path forward that acknowledges the threat that trans-women may face in men's prisons and also acknowledge the threat that cis-women may face being cell mates with a person who has a penis. Basically, I think that sexual assault in prisons should be taken far more seriously for everyone. That may mean every prisoner should get their own cell regardless of sex or gender. I don't think housing cis-women and intact trans-women in the same cell alleviates this.
- watwut 5y ago
  I am cis woman. I happened to look at prisom rape and sexual violence statistics a while ago. The trans men in jail abusing cis women is real thing. They are housed together now. The trans women being raped or abused is incredibly frequent thing - includig by guards. (Male on male rape is a joke, basically. Transwomen in prison are assumed to enjoy sexual abuse basically.) But despite the former being literally about cis women safety too, it just dont interest people. There are many ways to make prisons safer and making it so trans women or gender non conforming men are a bit safer is topic only for radical trans activists and no one else. If there is heated discussion about issue that dont currently exist which ignores issues that do cureently exist, it is ok to call it talking point.

plank_time 5y ago

In the UK prisons, transgender women sexually assault women 5x more than cis women sexually assault women. https://archive.is/iYD5T https://archive.is/iYD5T

nepeckman 5y ago
If you read the article you linked, you will find that is not true. From the article: "between 2016 and 2020, there were seven sexual assaults against females in women's prisons by trans women." 7 assaults in 4 years is not 5x more. If you are referring to the statistic that "trans inmates are 1% of the population and commit 5.6% of the assaults", you will find that the trans inmates in question are actually trans men being incorrectly housed in women's prisons.
robocat 5y ago
From article: “there were 125 trans prisoners in 2017, 60 of whom were serving sentences for sexual offences. Of those 60, 27 were serving a prison sentence for rape.” which is more shocking than your 5x statistic. Note the 5x statistic appears weak to me because “Between 2016 and 2020, there were seven sexual assaults [reported] against females in women's prisons by trans women.”.

noobermin 5y ago

Given rape is a fear in general (women without penises can rape, you know) may be people shouldn't share sleeping quarters.