5 ms·

I couldn't disagree more. The shortage is very real, the current crop of "American programmers" are a bunch of incompetent, entitled brats who seem to think eve

I couldn't disagree more. The shortage is very real, the current crop of "American programmers" are a bunch of incompetent, entitled brats who seem to think everything is owed to them. Many of these unemployed "American Programmers" are the dregs, the bottom decile of programming talent which no company can employ. And their unemployability is exacerbated by their attitude problems. note: I am a 3x entrepreneur and my opinions are based on my 2 decades of experience in IT.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Do you have any data you can share to back up your specific assertions ("the bottom decile")?
xkqd 5y ago
> "are a bunch of incompetent, entitled brats who seem to think everything is owed to them" > "their unemployability is exacerbated by their attitude problems" I'm trying to remain polite about this, but with the tone and attitude you strike, I'm having a hard time taking your opinion for anything other than bitter frothing. Maybe you can elaborate on why you believe they're entitled, have attitude problems, or are brats.
- phenkdo 5y ago
  Thank you for being polite, but IMHO my post wasn’t tonally any different than the GP, ergo your indignation is misplaced. Since you asked, I speak with the experience of starting 3 businesses across Pharma, Defense and Media industries. I have also been involved in hiring multiple people across sectors, both in tech and non-tech jobs. As you also know, for defense that involves White-as-Wonderbread US citizens only, I also have interviewed almost exclusively from a certain complexion-gender combination club. Thus have formed my own pattern recognition, with an n of several hundred. If you are open to listening I can share a few illustrative anecdotes. Admittedly my posts are just opinions as I can only offer my own perspective. Although this study, and multiple others, seems to support my viewpoint. p.s. Truth hurts.
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    I wonder if the pharma & defense is why you encountered so many entitled and incompetent wannabe programmers.
    - DistressedDrone 5y ago
      As a programmer with morals, I would never work in pharma, defense or media. I can't be the only one.
      - Nicksil 5y ago
        I'm curious to hear to objection(s) to working in "pharma" if you have the time.
        DistressedDrone 5y ago
        Well, it's all relative. Assuming all corporations are equally amoral (or close enough), defense means war profiteering, whereas (traditional) media is a blight on our society that has largely abandoned any pretense of social function and actively holds us back by playing on our collective fears. On the other hand, pharma as a concept certainly needs to exist to save lives. As a Canadian, pharma is not so bad here, but I believe their existence as a for-profit* entity is contrary to the purpose of universal healthcare, which I think is a common enough sentiment. American pharma, however, actively profits from the inequality inherent to the (rather evil) lack of universal healthcare system. Any positives for society seem strictly incidental, as exemplified by the price of insulin.
        Nicksil 5y ago
        I could not agree with you more regarding media. And no, not "big media" just media. It's absolutely miserable and has let us all down. I also agree with your point regarding profiteering. This behavior can be observed in many industries, not just pharmaceutical, but it seems a more egregious violation when it affects our health or the well-being of someone we know. Your comment grabbed my attention because I couldn't immediately think of anything to support the sentiment of it being immoral to work in the pharmaceutical industry so I was naturally curious to find out. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective.
devwastaken 5y ago
1. Some unemployed devs don't find their work and successfully make their own business. Many work on the OS software you use. It's odd why you would think otherwise if you have that level of experience. 2. I know a number of good developers that are respectable, they just don't have the work experience in the form of "Worked at X for 2 years". A quick gander at github can reveal a number of highly skilled projects done out of self creation and not sourced from a company. 3. I haven't come across many "self entitled" programmers, but certainly many self entitled managers and business owners whom wave their hands around in the air acting like they know something they don't. Too many MBA's and people running companies they know little to nothing about, and base their "practices" almost entirely off confirmation bias. Managers and owners are by their nature more prone to incompetant brattiness - humans like to think power = competance. 4. Software dev has become more like making music - everyone does it, very few get a record deal and make good money. Whether the music is 'good' isn't much of a relationship with having a job in it or not. Plenty of bad devs with good resumes.

nathanaldensr 5y ago

Do you have any data you can share to back up your specific assertions ("the bottom decile")?

xkqd 5y ago

> "are a bunch of incompetent, entitled brats who seem to think everything is owed to them" > "their unemployability is exacerbated by their attitude problems" I'm trying to remain polite about this, but with the tone and attitude you strike, I'm having a hard time taking your opinion for anything other than bitter frothing. Maybe you can elaborate on why you believe they're entitled, have attitude problems, or are brats.

phenkdo 5y ago
Thank you for being polite, but IMHO my post wasn’t tonally any different than the GP, ergo your indignation is misplaced. Since you asked, I speak with the experience of starting 3 businesses across Pharma, Defense and Media industries. I have also been involved in hiring multiple people across sectors, both in tech and non-tech jobs. As you also know, for defense that involves White-as-Wonderbread US citizens only, I also have interviewed almost exclusively from a certain complexion-gender combination club. Thus have formed my own pattern recognition, with an n of several hundred. If you are open to listening I can share a few illustrative anecdotes. Admittedly my posts are just opinions as I can only offer my own perspective. Although this study, and multiple others, seems to support my viewpoint. p.s. Truth hurts.
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  I wonder if the pharma & defense is why you encountered so many entitled and incompetent wannabe programmers.
  - DistressedDrone 5y ago
    As a programmer with morals, I would never work in pharma, defense or media. I can't be the only one.
    - Nicksil 5y ago
      I'm curious to hear to objection(s) to working in "pharma" if you have the time.
      - DistressedDrone 5y ago
        Well, it's all relative. Assuming all corporations are equally amoral (or close enough), defense means war profiteering, whereas (traditional) media is a blight on our society that has largely abandoned any pretense of social function and actively holds us back by playing on our collective fears. On the other hand, pharma as a concept certainly needs to exist to save lives. As a Canadian, pharma is not so bad here, but I believe their existence as a for-profit* entity is contrary to the purpose of universal healthcare, which I think is a common enough sentiment. American pharma, however, actively profits from the inequality inherent to the (rather evil) lack of universal healthcare system. Any positives for society seem strictly incidental, as exemplified by the price of insulin.
        Nicksil 5y ago
        I could not agree with you more regarding media. And no, not "big media" just media. It's absolutely miserable and has let us all down. I also agree with your point regarding profiteering. This behavior can be observed in many industries, not just pharmaceutical, but it seems a more egregious violation when it affects our health or the well-being of someone we know. Your comment grabbed my attention because I couldn't immediately think of anything to support the sentiment of it being immoral to work in the pharmaceutical industry so I was naturally curious to find out. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective.

devwastaken 5y ago

1. Some unemployed devs don't find their work and successfully make their own business. Many work on the OS software you use. It's odd why you would think otherwise if you have that level of experience. 2. I know a number of good developers that are respectable, they just don't have the work experience in the form of "Worked at X for 2 years". A quick gander at github can reveal a number of highly skilled projects done out of self creation and not sourced from a company. 3. I haven't come across many "self entitled" programmers, but certainly many self entitled managers and business owners whom wave their hands around in the air acting like they know something they don't. Too many MBA's and people running companies they know little to nothing about, and base their "practices" almost entirely off confirmation bias. Managers and owners are by their nature more prone to incompetant brattiness - humans like to think power = competance. 4. Software dev has become more like making music - everyone does it, very few get a record deal and make good money. Whether the music is 'good' isn't much of a relationship with having a job in it or not. Plenty of bad devs with good resumes.