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>I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social or economic status. Are we talking status relative to others

>I have not noticed a strong relationship between "the ability to DO THINGS" and someone's social or economic status. Are we talking status relative to others or relative to the starting position? There will always be the deadbeat child of someone wealthy who's still wealthier than you but all the "doers" I know have climbed the socioeconomic ladder at least a couple rungs in their adult lives.

asoneth 5y ago
The quoted statement was referring to absolute socioeconomic status. I agree that relative movement is possible and I also know a lot of extremely hard-working people (both rich and poor) who have been successful and climbed a rung or two in their lives. My point was more that the average wealthy person I know doesn't seem to have a particularly greater or lesser "ability to do things" compared to the poor people I know. Whereas if the "ability to do things" was really a substantial socioeconomic equalizer then I would have expected that DO-ers would be over-represented the higher up the socioeconomic ladder you climb instead of evenly distributed at each level. Perhaps it's different at the very top and the very bottom? (As a contrast, in the military I found a positive correlation between an officer's rank and their ability to do things. Most of the colonels I worked with had an impressive intellect and drive, and even moreso with the generals I met.)
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  "Equalizer" was probably the wrong word. It's probably more like, you start somewhere, and do-ing is one of the biggest components in the delta between where you start and where you end. That doesn't mean that in one generation you overcome someone else's head start. But it's still a good, beneficial thing to strive after.
  - asoneth 5y ago
    I would agree that do-ing is a major component of the delta, along with ability and a fair bit of luck. I guess my mental model would be that someone's socioeconomic status often comes down to: starting point + (hard work * ability * luck) (where any one of those may be positive or negative)
vinceguidry 5y ago
The real problem with this line of thinking is this conversation needs to revolve around things we can put on a political agenda, and there's no way to put "make more kids that do things" on a political agenda. We can put access to education on that agenda, and did, back in the 90s. I don't know what the next societal band-aid will be, but it probably won't get us any closer to actual equality of opportunity. Still doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
- jacobr1 5y ago
  Access to capital? The small business loan system could be modernized to support a wider variety of businesses, could incorporate grants, could be more generous - especially if we wanted to advantage certain groups - like first time entrepreneurs.
EricE 5y ago
"Are we talking status relative to others or relative to the starting position?" And what of it? There has never been a time in human history where starting position has mattered less. NONE! Don't just take my word for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOiQgleiRtU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOiQgleiRtU Also - think of what a better place it would be if that Don Lemon who was tired of race bating had survived and had got his wish? How sad we are where we are today - and ironically he's one of the front line contributors to it too!

asoneth 5y ago

The quoted statement was referring to absolute socioeconomic status. I agree that relative movement is possible and I also know a lot of extremely hard-working people (both rich and poor) who have been successful and climbed a rung or two in their lives. My point was more that the average wealthy person I know doesn't seem to have a particularly greater or lesser "ability to do things" compared to the poor people I know. Whereas if the "ability to do things" was really a substantial socioeconomic equalizer then I would have expected that DO-ers would be over-represented the higher up the socioeconomic ladder you climb instead of evenly distributed at each level. Perhaps it's different at the very top and the very bottom? (As a contrast, in the military I found a positive correlation between an officer's rank and their ability to do things. Most of the colonels I worked with had an impressive intellect and drive, and even moreso with the generals I met.)

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
"Equalizer" was probably the wrong word. It's probably more like, you start somewhere, and do-ing is one of the biggest components in the delta between where you start and where you end. That doesn't mean that in one generation you overcome someone else's head start. But it's still a good, beneficial thing to strive after.
- asoneth 5y ago
  I would agree that do-ing is a major component of the delta, along with ability and a fair bit of luck. I guess my mental model would be that someone's socioeconomic status often comes down to: starting point + (hard work * ability * luck) (where any one of those may be positive or negative)

vinceguidry 5y ago

The real problem with this line of thinking is this conversation needs to revolve around things we can put on a political agenda, and there's no way to put "make more kids that do things" on a political agenda. We can put access to education on that agenda, and did, back in the 90s. I don't know what the next societal band-aid will be, but it probably won't get us any closer to actual equality of opportunity. Still doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

jacobr1 5y ago
Access to capital? The small business loan system could be modernized to support a wider variety of businesses, could incorporate grants, could be more generous - especially if we wanted to advantage certain groups - like first time entrepreneurs.

EricE 5y ago

"Are we talking status relative to others or relative to the starting position?" And what of it? There has never been a time in human history where starting position has mattered less. NONE! Don't just take my word for it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOiQgleiRtU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOiQgleiRtU Also - think of what a better place it would be if that Don Lemon who was tired of race bating had survived and had got his wish? How sad we are where we are today - and ironically he's one of the front line contributors to it too!