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> The truth is that some of the hardest workers on the planet (anecdotes of single mothers working three jobs to provide for their family come to mind) are livi

by bko 5y ago

> The truth is that some of the hardest workers on the planet (anecdotes of single mothers working three jobs to provide for their family come to mind) are living below the poverty line and there is no amount of harder work that would fix that. If she stopped working hard, would she be equally as successful, since you know, work and success have a tenuous correlation?

arvinsim 5y ago
One can stop working, win the lottery and be successfully financially.
- ghufran_syed 5y ago
  That person still had to earn the money for the lottery ticket, and do the work of buying the tickets. If you discount all the necessary steps except the final random payoff, it’s easy to “prove” that hard work was not required for a given person’s success
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    > That person still had to earn the money for the lottery ticket, and do the work of buying the tickets. Not necessarily, it could be a gift or even something they find on the street. It's also not the point. All through this thread you are ignoring that people are talking about relative hard work effort versus success output. Buying a lottery ticket is such little effort I'd barely even call it "work". So the the work effort is tiny. The success outcome if you win is absolutely enormous. The deciding factor is luck. This is why I say hard work and success are barely related. It's possible, perhaps even likely, to work hard and see little success, while others work less hard, get lucky, and see huge success. At best, hard work gives you more opportunities to get lucky. People who get lucky in this manner (or wish they could) often say that hard work is a way of making your own luck, but that's just a form of survivorship bias imo.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
> If she stopped working hard, would she be equally as successful, since you know, work and success have a tenuous correlation She's already not very successful despite working like crazy. So arguably yes, she would be pretty much as successful if she stopped working versus running herself ragged. Or if she's pretty (luck) she might meet a well-off partner (also luck) and suddenly not need to work as hard. Or if she wins the lottery, as another poster mentioned. Or maybe someone finds oil on her property (luck), which she only owns because she inherited it (luck). I'll admit that none of these situations are terribly likely. My main point was more around how someone could be working three jobs, arguably working harder than almost anyone else in society, and still be barely considered successful. Her ability to be "equally successful" if she stopped working is kind of a red herring here because the problem is she's already not very successful despite working harder than anyone.
- ghufran_syed 5y ago
  Having a home is better (more successful) than being homeless. Having children to care for and who (hopefully) love you is better (more successful) than not having those things. Both of those things might be at risk if she didn’t work hard. I think your example says more about your own values rather about society in general
  - bluefirebrand 5y ago
    My own values are that someone should be able to have those things, a home and family, without working three jobs to barely stay on top of things. Again what I am talking about, and you are ignoring, is the magnitude of the work being done here, versus the relatively scant level of success achieved. Barely being able to afford a roof over your head is not success by any measure except against the most basic of standards. If you have to compare your level of success to someone who literally lives on the streets, you're in a dire situation. We should absolutely want better for people than "they barely aren't homeless and it takes a monumental effort for them to stay that way"
    - ghufran_syed 5y ago

by bko 5y ago

arvinsim 5y ago

One can stop working, win the lottery and be successfully financially.

ghufran_syed 5y ago
That person still had to earn the money for the lottery ticket, and do the work of buying the tickets. If you discount all the necessary steps except the final random payoff, it’s easy to “prove” that hard work was not required for a given person’s success
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  > That person still had to earn the money for the lottery ticket, and do the work of buying the tickets. Not necessarily, it could be a gift or even something they find on the street. It's also not the point. All through this thread you are ignoring that people are talking about relative hard work effort versus success output. Buying a lottery ticket is such little effort I'd barely even call it "work". So the the work effort is tiny. The success outcome if you win is absolutely enormous. The deciding factor is luck. This is why I say hard work and success are barely related. It's possible, perhaps even likely, to work hard and see little success, while others work less hard, get lucky, and see huge success. At best, hard work gives you more opportunities to get lucky. People who get lucky in this manner (or wish they could) often say that hard work is a way of making your own luck, but that's just a form of survivorship bias imo.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

> If she stopped working hard, would she be equally as successful, since you know, work and success have a tenuous correlation She's already not very successful despite working like crazy. So arguably yes, she would be pretty much as successful if she stopped working versus running herself ragged. Or if she's pretty (luck) she might meet a well-off partner (also luck) and suddenly not need to work as hard. Or if she wins the lottery, as another poster mentioned. Or maybe someone finds oil on her property (luck), which she only owns because she inherited it (luck). I'll admit that none of these situations are terribly likely. My main point was more around how someone could be working three jobs, arguably working harder than almost anyone else in society, and still be barely considered successful. Her ability to be "equally successful" if she stopped working is kind of a red herring here because the problem is she's already not very successful despite working harder than anyone.

ghufran_syed 5y ago
Having a home is better (more successful) than being homeless. Having children to care for and who (hopefully) love you is better (more successful) than not having those things. Both of those things might be at risk if she didn’t work hard. I think your example says more about your own values rather about society in general
- bluefirebrand 5y ago
  My own values are that someone should be able to have those things, a home and family, without working three jobs to barely stay on top of things. Again what I am talking about, and you are ignoring, is the magnitude of the work being done here, versus the relatively scant level of success achieved. Barely being able to afford a roof over your head is not success by any measure except against the most basic of standards. If you have to compare your level of success to someone who literally lives on the streets, you're in a dire situation. We should absolutely want better for people than "they barely aren't homeless and it takes a monumental effort for them to stay that way"
  - ghufran_syed 5y ago