5 ms·

"Glorified auto mechanic" is exactly how I'd describe how software development is viewed in Europe. There is a much bigger emphasis on "just" buying software fr

"Glorified auto mechanic" is exactly how I'd describe how software development is viewed in Europe. There is a much bigger emphasis on "just" buying software from Microsoft and SAP to "solve" problems.

IdiocyInAction 5y ago
Yeah, software is quite low status here and the salaries are often a joke.
- dave_sid 5y ago
  What on earth are you all talking about? Explain it to me like I’m 5.
  - k__ 5y ago
    US devs get >$100k a year, EU devs get <70k€ a year.
    - dave_sid 5y ago
      Ouch!
    - adrianN 5y ago
      $100k is 83k€, and you should probably include cost of living in these comparisons. Nobody has college debt in Germany for example.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - k__ 5y ago
        I wouldn't actually call real estate ownership cheap in Germany. Yet, many engineers from the US own their home.
  - IdiocyInAction 5y ago
    The average salary is like 50k (with many positions going lower) and you are basically viewed as a manual worker.
ravenstine 5y ago
It's not so much different in America other than that we get paid more. Most companies "hire some geeks" to solve what they see as just a different kind of plumbing without physical pipes. The average person doesn't respect software engineering so it's no surprise that management doesn't either. So that extra pay we get is mainly to compensate for the mental abuse we're guaranteed to endure. Also, most developers in America don't make that much more than European developers. It's just that we happen to be willing to pay seasoned developers quite a lot more. Most junior and mid-level developers here don't make much more than $90k, and many of the companies that are willing to pay at least that or more are located in areas where the cost of living makes that salary abysmal.
- Silhouette 5y ago
  Also, most developers in America don't make that much more than European developers. It's just that we happen to be willing to pay seasoned developers quite a lot more. Most junior and mid-level developers here don't make much more than $90k But the ceiling for top developers in most of the world is below that. Even here in the UK, where salaries are starting to get pushed up a bit, there are still only a few employers who would beat that today, and mostly in places like London where cost of living is also relatively high. Hardly anyone is making the kind of money that you see devs with as little as 5 YOE routinely making with half the companies in SV, even people with multiples of that experience who would be staff/principal level in a big US tech firm.
alexgmcm 5y ago
It reminds me of the ancient joke about how in Germany if you tell your neighbour you are an engineer he will introduce you to his daughter, in the UK he will ask you to fix his microwave. Except these days it seems the whole of Europe undervalues software engineering.
ex_amazon_sde 5y ago
This *really* depends on the company.

IdiocyInAction 5y ago

Yeah, software is quite low status here and the salaries are often a joke.

dave_sid 5y ago
What on earth are you all talking about? Explain it to me like I’m 5.
- k__ 5y ago
  US devs get >$100k a year, EU devs get <70k€ a year.
  - dave_sid 5y ago
    Ouch!
  - adrianN 5y ago
    $100k is 83k€, and you should probably include cost of living in these comparisons. Nobody has college debt in Germany for example.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - k__ 5y ago
      I wouldn't actually call real estate ownership cheap in Germany. Yet, many engineers from the US own their home.
- IdiocyInAction 5y ago
  The average salary is like 50k (with many positions going lower) and you are basically viewed as a manual worker.

ravenstine 5y ago

It's not so much different in America other than that we get paid more. Most companies "hire some geeks" to solve what they see as just a different kind of plumbing without physical pipes. The average person doesn't respect software engineering so it's no surprise that management doesn't either. So that extra pay we get is mainly to compensate for the mental abuse we're guaranteed to endure. Also, most developers in America don't make that much more than European developers. It's just that we happen to be willing to pay seasoned developers quite a lot more. Most junior and mid-level developers here don't make much more than $90k, and many of the companies that are willing to pay at least that or more are located in areas where the cost of living makes that salary abysmal.

Silhouette 5y ago
Also, most developers in America don't make that much more than European developers. It's just that we happen to be willing to pay seasoned developers quite a lot more. Most junior and mid-level developers here don't make much more than $90k But the ceiling for top developers in most of the world is below that. Even here in the UK, where salaries are starting to get pushed up a bit, there are still only a few employers who would beat that today, and mostly in places like London where cost of living is also relatively high. Hardly anyone is making the kind of money that you see devs with as little as 5 YOE routinely making with half the companies in SV, even people with multiples of that experience who would be staff/principal level in a big US tech firm.

alexgmcm 5y ago

It reminds me of the ancient joke about how in Germany if you tell your neighbour you are an engineer he will introduce you to his daughter, in the UK he will ask you to fix his microwave. Except these days it seems the whole of Europe undervalues software engineering.

ex_amazon_sde 5y ago

This *really* depends on the company.