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Good... the industry for developers has been slowly moving in a direction that seems to be trying to turn us into glorified auto mechanics. This is unacceptable

by tomc1985 5y ago

Good... the industry for developers has been slowly moving in a direction that seems to be trying to turn us into glorified auto mechanics. This is unacceptable. Let's keep supply tight!

k__ 5y ago
I don't think supply is the problem. It's simply that demand is skyrocketing, but we didn't make software substantially easier in the last decades.
- adrianN 5y ago
  The systems we can build today with a small team are much more complicated than what we could do ten years ago. It's just that we also somehow managed to solve essentially the same problems we solved ten years ago with much more complex software.
  - dantheman 5y ago
    Scale and uptime - systems today are designed to scale and handle faults in ways that were impossible in the past. That brings complexity. Larger teams also ship faster, there's a lot of complexity to enable that collaboration.
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      > handle faults in ways that were impossible in the past Like what? Earlier systems worked if your computer worked. Adding a server is a DRM move and doesn't help the user with reliability - usually the opposite.
      - adrianN 5y ago
        Adding a server helps with the reliability of my backups :)
    - danabrams 5y ago
      Larger teams ship faster? My experience is that in most situations larger teams ship slower, precisely because of the collaboration costs you mention. There are ways to reduce the dependencies, but most organizations can't get there.
  - dkdbejwi383 5y ago
    Yeah you’re still gonna write CRUD apps, just with two different databases, 5 queues, 12 microservices and tons of terraform to glue it together
    - eeZah7Ux 5y ago
      ...or worse, docker and kubernetes.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  We also didn't improve our standards in any meaningful way. Most software is complete shit, and we're lucky when the end user doesn't notice too much. As a software engineer, I'm appalled by the average "web app" both in terms of how the product functions and the code making it happen. Accessibility is still a complete afterthought and the documentation on accessibility standards is too confusing. The only reason many of us are still around is that no one has truly figured out a good replacement for the average software developer yet. The closest we have is things like Wix and Squarespace. The junior and mid level developers of today are ripe for obsolescence and it's a matter of time before someone finally figures out how to give small companies the power of software development without all of the overhead they currently endure. The world also doesn't need that much software, hence we don't necessarily need more software developers all the time. Software scales with problems to be solved, not with population. Those paying our bills need to figure out just how much of their money they are wasting on what is essentially the same kind of software development that took place 30 years ago.
  - k__ 5y ago
    I'm with you in that we need better accessibility, but I don't think that we reached peak software. I think, we didn't scratch the surface of the true demand yet. But, yes, we should get dramatically better in so many ways.
  - Yoric 5y ago
    The scary part is that researchers have been working on making software more reliable for the past ~50 years, with really good results. Industry? Nah, except for a few niche cases, we've been adopting a worse is better approach, thank you very much. It's only been a few years since developers (outside of these niches) stopped laughing when hearing about sound static type checking, static analysis, model checking, object capabilities, abstract interpretation, message passing APIs, getting rid of NULL, reactive programming, stream programming, let it fail, transactional memory, linear types, etc. Of course, at the same time, we moved everything to web programming, where everything is broken for different reasons. Research has been studying that for a couple of decades, too, so I figure we should start using more robust paradigms within 10-20 years.
- systematical 5y ago
  If anything we've made it harder. You want a senior engineer who also can run k8s and is well versed in a multitude of languages. Don't get me started on tooling, especially in the JS landscape. I'm amazed engineers pick it up without having grown up with it.
thirsteh 5y ago
"Glorified auto mechanic" is exactly how I'd describe how software development is viewed in Europe. There is a much bigger emphasis on "just" buying software from Microsoft and SAP to "solve" problems.
- IdiocyInAction 5y ago
  Yeah, software is quite low status here and the salaries are often a joke.
  - dave_sid 5y ago
    What on earth are you all talking about? Explain it to me like I’m 5.
    - k__ 5y ago
      US devs get >$100k a year, EU devs get <70k€ a year.
      - dave_sid 5y ago
        Ouch!
      - adrianN 5y ago
        $100k is 83k€, and you should probably include cost of living in these comparisons. Nobody has college debt in Germany for example.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        k__ 5y ago
        I wouldn't actually call real estate ownership cheap in Germany. Yet, many engineers from the US own their home.
    - IdiocyInAction 5y ago
moksly 5y ago
Auto mechanics at least have the common sense to repair things the same way, so that the next mechanic can work on the next fix in a few hours instead of first having to spend 10 weeks getting into the “mindset” of the previous mechanic. Seriously, it’s not best practices when everyone apply them differently.
- mym1990 5y ago
  There are many, many ways to write even a small piece of code/functionality and small sub-optimal choices can lead to tons of entropy down the road. To compound this, almost every solution is going to be different, and there just isn't a '300 Page Manual on Servicing Your Jaguar' equivalent for every possible software solution. While I get the gist of what you're saying, I think building and repairing physical things is different from building and repairing more abstract things.
- polygotdomain 5y ago
  ...but software engineers are not "repairing" things, we're building systems. Mechanics repair things in a similar way because there's literally repair manuals from the manufacturer that tell them how to repair your vehicle because _the manufacturer_ has thought of how to repair things. You'd be surprised how much variation there is in the solution when it comes to autofabrication, and yes there's similar amounts of "figuring it out" that there is in the software world. Quite frankly the automechanics <-> software engineer analogy is apples to oranges.
  - moksly 5y ago
    I mean, mechanics aren’t exactly happy that it’s become like that though. Used to be that they could repair every car, but now they are tied to brands because they need certifications and special tools. Not because the manufacturer needed the tools to build the car, but because without them, anyone could repair it. > we're building systems. Someone has to maintain them.
    - polygotdomain 5y ago
Nicksil 5y ago
>Good... the industry for developers has been slowly moving in a direction that seems to be trying to turn us into glorified auto mechanics. This is unacceptable. Let's keep supply tight! I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. My brother is an auto mechanic and the type work he does constantly blows my mind. Diagnostics, transmission/engine rebuilds, you name it; especially with these newer models. With the exception of a few, there's nothing special about what we do. I don't see how we're any different than "glorified auto mechanics".
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Unfortunately a lot of people in our industry have some kind of superiority complex.
- MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
  I agree about the highly-skilled work auto mechanics do, but the solutions are more scripted, and the stakes are usually lower.
  - foobarrio 5y ago
    Are the stakes really lower? A simple brake job gone wrong can literally kill people. I can't remember the last time I miscalculated profit/loss for a client where the result was a fiery death.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
      Maybe a better way to say it is, software development usually has a bigger financial consequence. And that consequence scales along with the skill and judgment of the developer.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >and the stakes are usually lower. You don't really mean this, do you?
- mym1990 5y ago
hypervisorxxx 5y ago
Clearly have not been abused by a company wanting you to do 5x as much work as one developer should. We need many more software engineers and many more innovations in the industry so software engineers don't suffer from chronic burnout and being underpaid.
endisneigh 5y ago
I don't understand your post - is it bad to be a "glorified auto mechanic"?
- hackinthebochs 5y ago
  Is it bad to not be seen as a professional and instead as an interchangeable cog? Yes.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    An auto mechanic is not a professional?
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      The skill required to be an auto mechanics is hugely underrated by people that doesn't know how to work with cars. They are one of the few craftsmen jobs still left.
    - hackinthebochs 5y ago
      The issue isn't whether auto mechanic satisfies some platonic ideal of a professional, the issue is how one is treated by society or by their employers. I know little of the experience of auto mechanics, but I don't think its a stretch to say that society treats them as interchangeable cogs moreso than, say, doctors or lawyers.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        ironically your very view as stated here is simply contributing to how "society treats" them, no?
        hackinthebochs 5y ago
        Sure, you can see it that way. Or you can see it as attempting to make a different point casually without having to avoid everyone's personal landmines and bugaboos.
bingidingi 5y ago
You don't have to step on other professions to lift yourself up mate.

Good... the industry for developers has been slowly moving in a direction that seems to be trying to turn us into glorified auto mechanics. This is unacceptable. Let's keep supply tight!

k__ 5y ago

I don't think supply is the problem. It's simply that demand is skyrocketing, but we didn't make software substantially easier in the last decades.

adrianN 5y ago
The systems we can build today with a small team are much more complicated than what we could do ten years ago. It's just that we also somehow managed to solve essentially the same problems we solved ten years ago with much more complex software.
- dantheman 5y ago
  Scale and uptime - systems today are designed to scale and handle faults in ways that were impossible in the past. That brings complexity. Larger teams also ship faster, there's a lot of complexity to enable that collaboration.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    > handle faults in ways that were impossible in the past Like what? Earlier systems worked if your computer worked. Adding a server is a DRM move and doesn't help the user with reliability - usually the opposite.
    - adrianN 5y ago
      Adding a server helps with the reliability of my backups :)
  - danabrams 5y ago
    Larger teams ship faster? My experience is that in most situations larger teams ship slower, precisely because of the collaboration costs you mention. There are ways to reduce the dependencies, but most organizations can't get there.
- dkdbejwi383 5y ago
  Yeah you’re still gonna write CRUD apps, just with two different databases, 5 queues, 12 microservices and tons of terraform to glue it together
  - eeZah7Ux 5y ago
    ...or worse, docker and kubernetes.
ravenstine 5y ago
We also didn't improve our standards in any meaningful way. Most software is complete shit, and we're lucky when the end user doesn't notice too much. As a software engineer, I'm appalled by the average "web app" both in terms of how the product functions and the code making it happen. Accessibility is still a complete afterthought and the documentation on accessibility standards is too confusing. The only reason many of us are still around is that no one has truly figured out a good replacement for the average software developer yet. The closest we have is things like Wix and Squarespace. The junior and mid level developers of today are ripe for obsolescence and it's a matter of time before someone finally figures out how to give small companies the power of software development without all of the overhead they currently endure. The world also doesn't need that much software, hence we don't necessarily need more software developers all the time. Software scales with problems to be solved, not with population. Those paying our bills need to figure out just how much of their money they are wasting on what is essentially the same kind of software development that took place 30 years ago.
- k__ 5y ago
  I'm with you in that we need better accessibility, but I don't think that we reached peak software. I think, we didn't scratch the surface of the true demand yet. But, yes, we should get dramatically better in so many ways.
- Yoric 5y ago
  The scary part is that researchers have been working on making software more reliable for the past ~50 years, with really good results. Industry? Nah, except for a few niche cases, we've been adopting a worse is better approach, thank you very much. It's only been a few years since developers (outside of these niches) stopped laughing when hearing about sound static type checking, static analysis, model checking, object capabilities, abstract interpretation, message passing APIs, getting rid of NULL, reactive programming, stream programming, let it fail, transactional memory, linear types, etc. Of course, at the same time, we moved everything to web programming, where everything is broken for different reasons. Research has been studying that for a couple of decades, too, so I figure we should start using more robust paradigms within 10-20 years.
systematical 5y ago
If anything we've made it harder. You want a senior engineer who also can run k8s and is well versed in a multitude of languages. Don't get me started on tooling, especially in the JS landscape. I'm amazed engineers pick it up without having grown up with it.

thirsteh 5y ago

"Glorified auto mechanic" is exactly how I'd describe how software development is viewed in Europe. There is a much bigger emphasis on "just" buying software from Microsoft and SAP to "solve" problems.

IdiocyInAction 5y ago
Yeah, software is quite low status here and the salaries are often a joke.
- dave_sid 5y ago
  What on earth are you all talking about? Explain it to me like I’m 5.
  - k__ 5y ago
    US devs get >$100k a year, EU devs get <70k€ a year.
    - dave_sid 5y ago
      Ouch!
    - adrianN 5y ago
      $100k is 83k€, and you should probably include cost of living in these comparisons. Nobody has college debt in Germany for example.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - k__ 5y ago
        I wouldn't actually call real estate ownership cheap in Germany. Yet, many engineers from the US own their home.
  - IdiocyInAction 5y ago

moksly 5y ago

Auto mechanics at least have the common sense to repair things the same way, so that the next mechanic can work on the next fix in a few hours instead of first having to spend 10 weeks getting into the “mindset” of the previous mechanic. Seriously, it’s not best practices when everyone apply them differently.

mym1990 5y ago
There are many, many ways to write even a small piece of code/functionality and small sub-optimal choices can lead to tons of entropy down the road. To compound this, almost every solution is going to be different, and there just isn't a '300 Page Manual on Servicing Your Jaguar' equivalent for every possible software solution. While I get the gist of what you're saying, I think building and repairing physical things is different from building and repairing more abstract things.
polygotdomain 5y ago
...but software engineers are not "repairing" things, we're building systems. Mechanics repair things in a similar way because there's literally repair manuals from the manufacturer that tell them how to repair your vehicle because _the manufacturer_ has thought of how to repair things. You'd be surprised how much variation there is in the solution when it comes to autofabrication, and yes there's similar amounts of "figuring it out" that there is in the software world. Quite frankly the automechanics <-> software engineer analogy is apples to oranges.
- moksly 5y ago
  I mean, mechanics aren’t exactly happy that it’s become like that though. Used to be that they could repair every car, but now they are tied to brands because they need certifications and special tools. Not because the manufacturer needed the tools to build the car, but because without them, anyone could repair it. > we're building systems. Someone has to maintain them.
  - polygotdomain 5y ago

Nicksil 5y ago

>Good... the industry for developers has been slowly moving in a direction that seems to be trying to turn us into glorified auto mechanics. This is unacceptable. Let's keep supply tight! I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. My brother is an auto mechanic and the type work he does constantly blows my mind. Diagnostics, transmission/engine rebuilds, you name it; especially with these newer models. With the exception of a few, there's nothing special about what we do. I don't see how we're any different than "glorified auto mechanics".

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Unfortunately a lot of people in our industry have some kind of superiority complex.
MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
I agree about the highly-skilled work auto mechanics do, but the solutions are more scripted, and the stakes are usually lower.
- foobarrio 5y ago
  Are the stakes really lower? A simple brake job gone wrong can literally kill people. I can't remember the last time I miscalculated profit/loss for a client where the result was a fiery death.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
    Maybe a better way to say it is, software development usually has a bigger financial consequence. And that consequence scales along with the skill and judgment of the developer.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >and the stakes are usually lower. You don't really mean this, do you?
mym1990 5y ago

hypervisorxxx 5y ago

Clearly have not been abused by a company wanting you to do 5x as much work as one developer should. We need many more software engineers and many more innovations in the industry so software engineers don't suffer from chronic burnout and being underpaid.

endisneigh 5y ago

I don't understand your post - is it bad to be a "glorified auto mechanic"?

hackinthebochs 5y ago
Is it bad to not be seen as a professional and instead as an interchangeable cog? Yes.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  An auto mechanic is not a professional?
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    The skill required to be an auto mechanics is hugely underrated by people that doesn't know how to work with cars. They are one of the few craftsmen jobs still left.
  - hackinthebochs 5y ago
    The issue isn't whether auto mechanic satisfies some platonic ideal of a professional, the issue is how one is treated by society or by their employers. I know little of the experience of auto mechanics, but I don't think its a stretch to say that society treats them as interchangeable cogs moreso than, say, doctors or lawyers.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      ironically your very view as stated here is simply contributing to how "society treats" them, no?
      - hackinthebochs 5y ago
        Sure, you can see it that way. Or you can see it as attempting to make a different point casually without having to avoid everyone's personal landmines and bugaboos.

bingidingi 5y ago

You don't have to step on other professions to lift yourself up mate.