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The book "Why Nations Fail" and the followup by the same authors "The Narrow Corridor" paints a fairly convincing picture that the success or failure of many mo

The book "Why Nations Fail" and the followup by the same authors "The Narrow Corridor" paints a fairly convincing picture that the success or failure of many modern Latin American countries is directly correlated with the extent to which the Spanish colonialists were able to enslave/subjugate the indigenous population, and the types of societies and institutions that followed that initial seed. For example, in modern day Bolivia you can overlay a Spanish colonial map detailing how much forced labor must be performed in each region with a modern poverty map and there is still a high degree of correlation. "The Narrow Corridor" has an entire chapter devoted to examining the differences between Costa Rica and its neighbor Guatemala. Guatemala had a large indigenous population that was forced to work on Encomiendas -- essentially Spanish plantations worked by indigenous slaves. This resulted in large swaths of land to be controlled by a few elite. This imbalance eventually results in a highly extractive and exploitative political and economic system. The same 8 families that were major Spanish colonial landowners still essentially run the country (though apparently their power is finally waning). The Castillo family has been the most powerful for literally half a millennium. Contrast this with Costa Rica which was far more sparsely populated. This resulted in small landholders working their own plots of land, and, in the short term, relative poverty compared to other Spanish conquered lands. But being overlooked by the Spanish, and having a wide spread of land ownership across the populace resulted in a homegrown movement of rural democracy. Links for further reading: https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2021/04/03/the-influence-of-central-american-dynasties-is-ebbing https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2021/04/03/the-influe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica#Spanish_colonization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica#Spanish_colonizatio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_El_Salvador#The_oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_El_Salvador#The_oli... (El Salvador, but a similar situation)

frozenport 5y ago
`you can overlay a Spanish colonial map detailing how much forced labor must be performed in each region with a modern poverty map and there is still a high degree of correlation.` Could this be partially attributed the geography, natural resources available in the region. AKA both the Spanish Empire and contemporary society saw the same poverty inducing industries available in those regions?
- gamegoblin 5y ago
  I decided to look up the actual blurb I was referencing to see what I had misremembered. Here is the text from the book (some snippets shortened with [..]). Paragraph 5 directly answers your question by comparing two provinces that are geographically and culturally similar, but happened to fall on different sides of a colonial forced labor zone. """ At this point the Spanish focused on the people of the Inca Empire. [..] Citizens were divided into encomiendas, with one going to each of the conquistadors [..]. The encomienda was the main institution used for the control and organization of labor in the early colonial period, but it soon faced a vigorous contender. In 1545 a local named Diego Gualpa was searching for an indigenous shrine high in the Andes in what is today Bolivia. He was thrown to the ground by a sudden gust of wind and in front of him appeared a cache of silver ore. This was part of a vast mountain of silver, which the Spanish baptized El Cerro Rico, “The Rich Hill.” Around it grew the city of Potosí, which at its height in 1650 had a population of 160,000 people, larger than Lisbon or Venice in this period. To exploit the silver, the Spanish needed miners [..]. They sent a new viceroy [..] Francisco de Toledo, whose main mission was to solve the labor problem. [..] To find the labor he needed, de Toledo first moved almost the entire indigenous population, concentrating them in new towns called reducciones — literally “reductions” — which would facilitate the exploitation of labor by the Spanish Crown. Then he revived and adapted an Inca labor institution known as the mita, which, in the Incas’ language, Quechua, means “a turn.” Under their mita system, the Incas had used forced labor to run plantations designed to provide food for temples, the aristocracy, and the army. [..] In de Toledo’s hands the mita, especially the Potosí mita, was to become the largest and most onerous scheme of labor exploitation in the Spanish colonial period. De Toledo defined a huge catchment area, running from the middle of modern-day Peru and encompassing most of modern Bolivia. [..] The Potosí mita endured throughout the entire colonial period and was abolished only in 1825. Map 1 shows the catchment area of the mita superimposed on the extent of the Inca empire at the time of the Spanish conquest. It illustrates the extent to which the mita overlapped with the heartland of the empire, encompassing the capital Cusco. Remarkably, you still see the legacy of the mita in Peru today. Take the differences between the provinces of Calca and nearby Acomayo. There appears to be few differences among these provinces. Both are high in the mountains, and each is inhabited by the Quechua-speaking descendants of the Incas. Yet Acomayo is much poorer, with its inhabitants consuming about one-third less than those in Calca. [..] In Calca and Acomayo, people grow the same crops, but in Calca they sell them on the market for money. In Acomayo they grow food for their own subsistence. These inequalities, apparent to the eye and to the people who live there, can be understood in terms of the institutional differences between these departments — institutional differences with historical roots going back to de Toledo and his plan for effective exploitation of indigenous labor. The major historical difference between Acomayo and Calca is that Acomayo was in the catchment area of the Potosí mita. Calca was not. [..] Throughout the Spanish colonial world in the Americas, similar institutions and social structures emerged. After an initial phase of looting, and gold and silver lust, the Spanish created a web of institutions designed to exploit the indigenous peoples. [..] Though these institutions generated a lot of wealth for the Spanish Crown and made the conquistadors and their descendants very rich, they also turned Latin America into the most unequal continent in the world and sapped much of its economic potential.
pier25 5y ago
I haven't read those books, but a priori it sounds like cherry picking. Mexico for example had a revolution which gave the land to the people and is a country that, over a century later, is still struggling with corruption, ignorance, superstition, etc. I've been living in Mexico for 12 years and IMO it all comes down to poor education like the grandparent comment by belval suggested. As an example, take the current Mexican government who was largely put in power by the lower classes. Instead of investing into education and social programs, is putting all its eggs into the oil basket. Edit: BTW I'm not arguing that more expenditure in education results in better education.
- rm_-rf_slash 5y ago
  Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically. For example, the U.S. Constitution’s 13th Amendment freed the slaves, but included an exception on forced labor for those convicted of a crime. Surprise surprise, former Confederate states make up crimes (like loitering) that are only enforced on Black people, and the cheap, no-choice labor force is back at work, even if under a structure that only barely resembles prewar chattel slavery.
  - pier25 5y ago
    > Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically. Yes, because the fundamental problem is changing the culture, not the "shape". In Mexico (the example I know first hand) corruption is definitely a cultural problem. It happens at all levels because it is culturally acceptable to bend/ignore the rules for personal gain. There's even a saying in Mexico which is "el que no transa no avanza". It translates to something like "the one who doesn't cheat, doesn't move forward in life".
    - rm_-rf_slash 5y ago
      A film you may find interesting if you haven’t seen it is the Brazilian crime thriller “Tropa de Elite 2 – O Inimigo Agora é Outro”, which not wishing to spoil anything, was a fascinating exploration of how systems of corruption can remain even as everyone involved gets moved out; the vacuum is filled as quickly as it’s made. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Within https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Withi...
distribot 5y ago
Nothing substantial to add, but I'm reading this book now and I'm finding it pretty interesting. The idea that the way colonial societies were organized and their institutional legacies affect modern nations makes a lot of sense. Cortes vs John Smith. Encomiendas vs settler colonies. And while early American society was extremely unequal, there was a lot more participation in the political process by more people than in most Spanish colonies.

frozenport 5y ago

`you can overlay a Spanish colonial map detailing how much forced labor must be performed in each region with a modern poverty map and there is still a high degree of correlation.` Could this be partially attributed the geography, natural resources available in the region. AKA both the Spanish Empire and contemporary society saw the same poverty inducing industries available in those regions?

gamegoblin 5y ago
I decided to look up the actual blurb I was referencing to see what I had misremembered. Here is the text from the book (some snippets shortened with [..]). Paragraph 5 directly answers your question by comparing two provinces that are geographically and culturally similar, but happened to fall on different sides of a colonial forced labor zone. """ At this point the Spanish focused on the people of the Inca Empire. [..] Citizens were divided into encomiendas, with one going to each of the conquistadors [..]. The encomienda was the main institution used for the control and organization of labor in the early colonial period, but it soon faced a vigorous contender. In 1545 a local named Diego Gualpa was searching for an indigenous shrine high in the Andes in what is today Bolivia. He was thrown to the ground by a sudden gust of wind and in front of him appeared a cache of silver ore. This was part of a vast mountain of silver, which the Spanish baptized El Cerro Rico, “The Rich Hill.” Around it grew the city of Potosí, which at its height in 1650 had a population of 160,000 people, larger than Lisbon or Venice in this period. To exploit the silver, the Spanish needed miners [..]. They sent a new viceroy [..] Francisco de Toledo, whose main mission was to solve the labor problem. [..] To find the labor he needed, de Toledo first moved almost the entire indigenous population, concentrating them in new towns called reducciones — literally “reductions” — which would facilitate the exploitation of labor by the Spanish Crown. Then he revived and adapted an Inca labor institution known as the mita, which, in the Incas’ language, Quechua, means “a turn.” Under their mita system, the Incas had used forced labor to run plantations designed to provide food for temples, the aristocracy, and the army. [..] In de Toledo’s hands the mita, especially the Potosí mita, was to become the largest and most onerous scheme of labor exploitation in the Spanish colonial period. De Toledo defined a huge catchment area, running from the middle of modern-day Peru and encompassing most of modern Bolivia. [..] The Potosí mita endured throughout the entire colonial period and was abolished only in 1825. Map 1 shows the catchment area of the mita superimposed on the extent of the Inca empire at the time of the Spanish conquest. It illustrates the extent to which the mita overlapped with the heartland of the empire, encompassing the capital Cusco. Remarkably, you still see the legacy of the mita in Peru today. Take the differences between the provinces of Calca and nearby Acomayo. There appears to be few differences among these provinces. Both are high in the mountains, and each is inhabited by the Quechua-speaking descendants of the Incas. Yet Acomayo is much poorer, with its inhabitants consuming about one-third less than those in Calca. [..] In Calca and Acomayo, people grow the same crops, but in Calca they sell them on the market for money. In Acomayo they grow food for their own subsistence. These inequalities, apparent to the eye and to the people who live there, can be understood in terms of the institutional differences between these departments — institutional differences with historical roots going back to de Toledo and his plan for effective exploitation of indigenous labor. The major historical difference between Acomayo and Calca is that Acomayo was in the catchment area of the Potosí mita. Calca was not. [..] Throughout the Spanish colonial world in the Americas, similar institutions and social structures emerged. After an initial phase of looting, and gold and silver lust, the Spanish created a web of institutions designed to exploit the indigenous peoples. [..] Though these institutions generated a lot of wealth for the Spanish Crown and made the conquistadors and their descendants very rich, they also turned Latin America into the most unequal continent in the world and sapped much of its economic potential.

pier25 5y ago

I haven't read those books, but a priori it sounds like cherry picking. Mexico for example had a revolution which gave the land to the people and is a country that, over a century later, is still struggling with corruption, ignorance, superstition, etc. I've been living in Mexico for 12 years and IMO it all comes down to poor education like the grandparent comment by belval suggested. As an example, take the current Mexican government who was largely put in power by the lower classes. Instead of investing into education and social programs, is putting all its eggs into the oil basket. Edit: BTW I'm not arguing that more expenditure in education results in better education.

rm_-rf_slash 5y ago
Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically. For example, the U.S. Constitution’s 13th Amendment freed the slaves, but included an exception on forced labor for those convicted of a crime. Surprise surprise, former Confederate states make up crimes (like loitering) that are only enforced on Black people, and the cheap, no-choice labor force is back at work, even if under a structure that only barely resembles prewar chattel slavery.
- pier25 5y ago
  > Systems of exploitation tend to be durable and adaptable over time, producing similar outcomes even if the overall shape appears to change drastically. Yes, because the fundamental problem is changing the culture, not the "shape". In Mexico (the example I know first hand) corruption is definitely a cultural problem. It happens at all levels because it is culturally acceptable to bend/ignore the rules for personal gain. There's even a saying in Mexico which is "el que no transa no avanza". It translates to something like "the one who doesn't cheat, doesn't move forward in life".
  - rm_-rf_slash 5y ago
    A film you may find interesting if you haven’t seen it is the Brazilian crime thriller “Tropa de Elite 2 – O Inimigo Agora é Outro”, which not wishing to spoil anything, was a fascinating exploration of how systems of corruption can remain even as everyone involved gets moved out; the vacuum is filled as quickly as it’s made. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Within https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Squad:_The_Enemy_Withi...

distribot 5y ago

Nothing substantial to add, but I'm reading this book now and I'm finding it pretty interesting. The idea that the way colonial societies were organized and their institutional legacies affect modern nations makes a lot of sense. Cortes vs John Smith. Encomiendas vs settler colonies. And while early American society was extremely unequal, there was a lot more participation in the political process by more people than in most Spanish colonies.