3 ms·

Tell me you're missing the point without telling me you're missing the point. >The kind of strict-enforcement situation the OP describes actually seems like a

by ruined 5y ago

Tell me you're missing the point without telling me you're missing the point. >The kind of strict-enforcement situation the OP describes actually seems like a tidy to solution to the problem of prohibiting prostitution without crating a trap for women in a trafficking situation. Except that’s not the situation this solution generates. It makes any aboveboard legal situation impossible, recreating the problems of prohibition and creating a trap.

tablespoon 5y ago
> Except that’s not the situation this solution generates. It makes any aboveboard legal situation impossible, recreating the problems of prohibition and creating a trap for women. How does this create a trap, when a trafficked women can always run to the police and get everyone who tried to exploit them arrested, without being in any legal peril themselves?
- ruined 5y ago
  that isn't how it works. any police interaction is fraught with legal peril. nwsp has a report on harms involved with this model of prohibition https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/4.%20Impacts%20of%20Other%20Legislation%20and%20Policy%20-%20The%20Danger%20of%20Seeing%20the%20Swedish%20Model%20in%20a%20Vacuum%2C%20Swedish%20Model%20Advocacy%20Toolkit%2C%20NSWP%20-%20December%202014.pdf https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/4.%20Impacts%20of%... occasionally there are news stories about particularly bad travesties of this kind of prohibition https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-migrant-sex-workers-jailed-prison-newbridge-police-romania-naas-a8962291.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-migr... one thing to keep in mind is that many people cannot seek help from the police. people who are victims to forced labor are often in a complex legal situation created or exploited by the perpetrators. undocumented people, the most vulnerable victims of trafficking, risk being arrested and deported if they seek help. this may destroy lives, separate families, render people homeless, or deliver refugees back to their peril. the only way to reduce this kind of exploitation is to legalize and proliferate good options that don't exploit people, and provide social support services to vulnerable people that do not involve law enforcement, so it becomes not easy or profitable to exploit people.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > one thing to keep in mind is that many people cannot seek help from the police. people who are victims to forced labor are often in a complex legal situation created or exploited by the perpetrators. I mean, isn't that the exact problem that structuring prostitution laws in this way solves? > undocumented people, the most vulnerable victims of trafficking, risk being arrested and deported if they seek help. Illegal immigration is separate legal issue from prostitution, and issues caused by it won't get solved by normalizing prostitution. I think a distinction needs to be drawn between legalizing prostitution and normalizing it. It's quite clear this Swedish model does the former without doing the latter, in order to solve a specific legal dilemma. That's still going to irk those who really want the latter.
gpm 5y ago
I think you're missing the point. There appears to be no aboveboard legal prostitution in Sweden, nor is that what the law envisions. Rather all prostitution involves someone committing a crime (the John), and the law has chosen to not directly punish one party because that leads to undesirable outcomes in cases where that party wasn't willing participating. There is no trap, if you don't break the law, and don't help other people break the law, then you aren't involved in the industry at all. I'm not going to take a position on whether or not prostitution should be legal, but pretending that prostitution is currently completely legal when it always involves a crime doesn't seem like a good argument.

by ruined 5y ago

tablespoon 5y ago

> Except that’s not the situation this solution generates. It makes any aboveboard legal situation impossible, recreating the problems of prohibition and creating a trap for women. How does this create a trap, when a trafficked women can always run to the police and get everyone who tried to exploit them arrested, without being in any legal peril themselves?

ruined 5y ago
that isn't how it works. any police interaction is fraught with legal peril. nwsp has a report on harms involved with this model of prohibition https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/4.%20Impacts%20of%20Other%20Legislation%20and%20Policy%20-%20The%20Danger%20of%20Seeing%20the%20Swedish%20Model%20in%20a%20Vacuum%2C%20Swedish%20Model%20Advocacy%20Toolkit%2C%20NSWP%20-%20December%202014.pdf https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/4.%20Impacts%20of%... occasionally there are news stories about particularly bad travesties of this kind of prohibition https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-migrant-sex-workers-jailed-prison-newbridge-police-romania-naas-a8962291.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-migr... one thing to keep in mind is that many people cannot seek help from the police. people who are victims to forced labor are often in a complex legal situation created or exploited by the perpetrators. undocumented people, the most vulnerable victims of trafficking, risk being arrested and deported if they seek help. this may destroy lives, separate families, render people homeless, or deliver refugees back to their peril. the only way to reduce this kind of exploitation is to legalize and proliferate good options that don't exploit people, and provide social support services to vulnerable people that do not involve law enforcement, so it becomes not easy or profitable to exploit people.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > one thing to keep in mind is that many people cannot seek help from the police. people who are victims to forced labor are often in a complex legal situation created or exploited by the perpetrators. I mean, isn't that the exact problem that structuring prostitution laws in this way solves? > undocumented people, the most vulnerable victims of trafficking, risk being arrested and deported if they seek help. Illegal immigration is separate legal issue from prostitution, and issues caused by it won't get solved by normalizing prostitution. I think a distinction needs to be drawn between legalizing prostitution and normalizing it. It's quite clear this Swedish model does the former without doing the latter, in order to solve a specific legal dilemma. That's still going to irk those who really want the latter.

gpm 5y ago

I think you're missing the point. There appears to be no aboveboard legal prostitution in Sweden, nor is that what the law envisions. Rather all prostitution involves someone committing a crime (the John), and the law has chosen to not directly punish one party because that leads to undesirable outcomes in cases where that party wasn't willing participating. There is no trap, if you don't break the law, and don't help other people break the law, then you aren't involved in the industry at all. I'm not going to take a position on whether or not prostitution should be legal, but pretending that prostitution is currently completely legal when it always involves a crime doesn't seem like a good argument.