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One thing I don't understand is this: Is this stance by Apple really the best for them? I'm an Android user only because of Apple's draconian closed garden. Su

One thing I don't understand is this: Is this stance by Apple really the best for them? I'm an Android user only because of Apple's draconian closed garden. Surely there are lots of Android users that would happily buy from the AppStore by default and enjoy likely privacy benefits if they felt they had more freedom of choice while using their device. Has Apple made the conscious decision to forego a massive market of users because the AppStore really rakes in that much cash? Basically, how do they know this position is better - even from a shareholder perspective? They must have proof - and that's sad because there are many users who would love their core product that will not own one.

mimixco 5y ago
The proof is in the pudding. Apple doesn't really sell products; they sell a lifestyle. This is in contrast to almost all other tech and PC brands which sell on the tech itself. Because tech cannot compete with lifestyle, Apple is in a different business. Clearly, it's a profitable one. Changing to an open model or competing on raw hardware or software is never going to be their thing. BTW, this is not to denigrate their hardware in any way as much of it is great. But, especially in recent years, the company has compromised the usefulness of its hardware through its walled garden approach to software.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  They don't only sell a lifestyle. They could do that without being anticompetitive and creating a walled garden. They do sell a lifestyle but want to be the only one who can sell it. I would really have to drink the cool-aid to work at Apple on their tech. I'm so annoyed by how Macs so commonly negotiate a low quality external display signal, e.g. YPbPr. It would suck to be told to make it do that in a plausibly deniable manner.
  - mimixco 5y ago
    Microsoft stands out here with their Xbox product, which is 1000% percent a walled garden. They make great hardware, have a great online product, their store is well liked and used by other gaming companies, and they allow cross-play with other platforms, even PC and Mac. Xbox Game Pass is considered the big success of the gaming industry right now and could define the future of how gaming looks (a la Netflix). It makes tons of money for them. All of this inside their walled garden and not in any way open. So walled gardens are not necessarily bad. I pay for Game Pass and I think it's a great deal.
- topicseed 5y ago
  > Apple doesn't really sell products; they sell a lifestyle. Other brands sell products, just products. Apple sells a lifestyle, on top of great products. Many of their products are leading technologically their specific category (e.g., Watch, iPad). Others are amazing products, sure pricier at times, but great nonetheless (e.g., iPhones, computers). So yes, Apple definitely sells a lifestyle and coolness but that's also backed up by real tech.
  - paulddraper 5y ago
    I'd have named the iPhone as a bigger technical edge than the iPad. Like a Surface Pro thoroughly beats an iPad on hard technical grounds.
karmakaze 5y ago
That's a good point. I've made the same choice. I don't know that we amount to a large number who choose Android out of any principle. If nothing else, it has to outweigh principles against Google/Play Services--I'm not on AOSP. I suspect that Apple does in fact make enough for this to be a no-brainer at the moment. It will take a shift in general public sentiment (and to some extent behaviour) to tip the balance. They wouldn't wait until it's strictly financially better because trust is hard to regain after losing it.
Grustaf 5y ago
I think you're a tiny minority. At most 1 in 20 wants to side-load apps, the other 19 prefer simplicity and safety.
- simonh 5y ago
  Right, I don’t want app developers to be able to do an end run around the App Store scrutiny and privacy vetting. If I had to side load Google and Facebook apps I probably would, but I want them to have to go through the App Store to get on my phone. I don’t want the ‘freedom’ of everything working like Android.
simonh 5y ago
If Android suits you better then use Android. As Steve once said, to paraphrase, if Apple is making a mistake then users will buy something else and they’ll learn, and the market will sort this all out.
- passivate 5y ago
  >if Apple is making a mistake then users will buy something else and they’ll learn, and the market will sort this all out. That is wishful thinking. There are plenty of examples of giant corporations existing even when their customers dislike them or their products. I'm confident you could think of a few.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
    > That is wishful thinking. No, it’s pretty basic capitalist market economic theory. The invisible hand of the market doesn’t work at an acceptable pace for some issues, but the theory is likely sound on the evolutionary scale of time.
    - passivate 5y ago
      It might be applicable in select situations - but I don't agree that its some kind of universal law. I view it as an opinion.
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
        May I remind you that if one is to treat economics as a science, then market theory is more than just opinion. Opinions lead to hypothesis which lead to theories which lead to laws.
        passivate 5y ago
        I suppose myperspective of what constitutes laws/theories is skewed after working in science/biotech. I'll let you have the last word, have a nice day.
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
I’m an Apple user because of the walled garden and foundations in Unix/BSD philosophies. I’d honestly switch to a flip phone and remove myself from the app market entirely, if it came down to a law preventing walled gardens.

mimixco 5y ago

The proof is in the pudding. Apple doesn't really sell products; they sell a lifestyle. This is in contrast to almost all other tech and PC brands which sell on the tech itself. Because tech cannot compete with lifestyle, Apple is in a different business. Clearly, it's a profitable one. Changing to an open model or competing on raw hardware or software is never going to be their thing. BTW, this is not to denigrate their hardware in any way as much of it is great. But, especially in recent years, the company has compromised the usefulness of its hardware through its walled garden approach to software.

karmakaze 5y ago
They don't only sell a lifestyle. They could do that without being anticompetitive and creating a walled garden. They do sell a lifestyle but want to be the only one who can sell it. I would really have to drink the cool-aid to work at Apple on their tech. I'm so annoyed by how Macs so commonly negotiate a low quality external display signal, e.g. YPbPr. It would suck to be told to make it do that in a plausibly deniable manner.
- mimixco 5y ago
  Microsoft stands out here with their Xbox product, which is 1000% percent a walled garden. They make great hardware, have a great online product, their store is well liked and used by other gaming companies, and they allow cross-play with other platforms, even PC and Mac. Xbox Game Pass is considered the big success of the gaming industry right now and could define the future of how gaming looks (a la Netflix). It makes tons of money for them. All of this inside their walled garden and not in any way open. So walled gardens are not necessarily bad. I pay for Game Pass and I think it's a great deal.
topicseed 5y ago
> Apple doesn't really sell products; they sell a lifestyle. Other brands sell products, just products. Apple sells a lifestyle, on top of great products. Many of their products are leading technologically their specific category (e.g., Watch, iPad). Others are amazing products, sure pricier at times, but great nonetheless (e.g., iPhones, computers). So yes, Apple definitely sells a lifestyle and coolness but that's also backed up by real tech.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  I'd have named the iPhone as a bigger technical edge than the iPad. Like a Surface Pro thoroughly beats an iPad on hard technical grounds.

karmakaze 5y ago

That's a good point. I've made the same choice. I don't know that we amount to a large number who choose Android out of any principle. If nothing else, it has to outweigh principles against Google/Play Services--I'm not on AOSP. I suspect that Apple does in fact make enough for this to be a no-brainer at the moment. It will take a shift in general public sentiment (and to some extent behaviour) to tip the balance. They wouldn't wait until it's strictly financially better because trust is hard to regain after losing it.

Grustaf 5y ago

I think you're a tiny minority. At most 1 in 20 wants to side-load apps, the other 19 prefer simplicity and safety.

simonh 5y ago
Right, I don’t want app developers to be able to do an end run around the App Store scrutiny and privacy vetting. If I had to side load Google and Facebook apps I probably would, but I want them to have to go through the App Store to get on my phone. I don’t want the ‘freedom’ of everything working like Android.

simonh 5y ago

If Android suits you better then use Android. As Steve once said, to paraphrase, if Apple is making a mistake then users will buy something else and they’ll learn, and the market will sort this all out.

passivate 5y ago
>if Apple is making a mistake then users will buy something else and they’ll learn, and the market will sort this all out. That is wishful thinking. There are plenty of examples of giant corporations existing even when their customers dislike them or their products. I'm confident you could think of a few.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  > That is wishful thinking. No, it’s pretty basic capitalist market economic theory. The invisible hand of the market doesn’t work at an acceptable pace for some issues, but the theory is likely sound on the evolutionary scale of time.
  - passivate 5y ago
    It might be applicable in select situations - but I don't agree that its some kind of universal law. I view it as an opinion.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
      May I remind you that if one is to treat economics as a science, then market theory is more than just opinion. Opinions lead to hypothesis which lead to theories which lead to laws.
      - passivate 5y ago
        I suppose myperspective of what constitutes laws/theories is skewed after working in science/biotech. I'll let you have the last word, have a nice day.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago

I’m an Apple user because of the walled garden and foundations in Unix/BSD philosophies. I’d honestly switch to a flip phone and remove myself from the app market entirely, if it came down to a law preventing walled gardens.