4 ms·

(not an expert, just Swedish) it is not illegal to be prostitute in Sweden, you are not allowed to buy it. So I guess there is no problem for a human trafficki

by 2rsf 5y ago

(not an expert, just Swedish) it is not illegal to be prostitute in Sweden, you are not allowed to buy it. So I guess there is no problem for a human trafficking victim to go to the police since they don't break any law themselves

ceejayoz 5y ago
Read the Reddit post we're discussing. It's made quite clear that that's wonderful in theory, but not so great in practice.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Sex workers are not made criminally liable in Sweden. All the Reddit post is saying is that outside people will not want to be associated with their business - which makes sense if every sex worker might possibly be a trafficked sex slave and no one can feasibly tell the difference beyond reasonable doubt.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Again, that's the point - that not being criminally liable doesn't prevent the authorities from treating them like criminals and making their lives difficult.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Ah, but are the authorities treating them like criminals or possible sex slaves? The Reddit post doesn't give any evidence for the former over the latter.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        #4 and #6 in particular sound targeted at the sex worker more than an attempt at preventing pimping/slavery.
        2rsf 5y ago
        #6 is simply a bank protecting itself, how would they differentiate a legal sex worker from a human trafficker? maybe in a country where some kind of prostitution is allowed they could show a certificate but not in Sweden. #4 is simply a fulfilling what the law and the government meant, prostitution is illegal and the best way to catch the offenders is waiting for them outside of the business.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        Surely you can see how "sex workers can't have bank accounts" winds up being punitive, even if it's an indirect result of the laws? Same for "what you do is legal, but we'll sit outside your house and arrest anyone going in-and-out".
        2rsf 5y ago
        You can't have a bank account if you have too many unexplained, to the bank, companies or branches in "not so nice" places. Hell, as a newcomer to Sweden you can't have a bank account until you have a personal number even though it is not necessary or legal to refuse. Police are not sitting outside anyone's house, they do detain sex buyers from time to time and the most sensible place to do that is outside of the business
  - watwut 5y ago
    Their clients are tho. So going to police endangers clients, so prostitute have to be reallu careful about it. Cause that sounds like sure way to loose clients.
- edrxty 5y ago
  To add to this, it's important to understand that there's the law, then there's the mythology surrounding the law. People rarely read the actual statues but rather rely on a sort of word of mouth heuristic transfer. Think adoption of GDPR, there's the actual text, then there's the cargo culting around cookie banners. Similarly patent trolls. The law is cut and dry but the internet of alight with stories about how someone in the wrong won buy having more money. People routinely build models on what prosecutors will pursue and what kinds of violations will be successfully punished and these will frequently be orthogonal to the laws text. See any US discussion online about the ATF for instance. If people believe of can be made to believe they will be prosecuted for doing something that isn't illegal then it's just as illegal as if it actually was.
- 2rsf 5y ago
  I have read it, I wouldn't comment otherwise I wouldn't want a neighbor operating a business that attract people, same as an hotel owner or guest. Criminalizing the owners is a step too far, I agree. Filming arrests? they also film traffic offenders and other crimes, the names remain confidential until the trial though Banks are worried to be involved in sex trafficking businesses, they don't have the tools to evaluate the legality of such a business so they simply ban all prostitutes. Similar rules apply BTW to large cash deposits or even unordinary sales of jewelry. I couldn't find anything in Swedish prohibiting (explicitly or implicitly) being a spouse to a prostitute, unless of course if said spouse advertised her services which is illegal TLDR; Sweden took it a bit too far maybe, but they also regulate alcohol sales so it makes sense. Personally? I don't care too much, unless (and I haven't checked) someone can prove to me that legalizing prostitution can help reduce violence, rape etc in some way. I have the same opinion about legalizing some drugs- if the damages if significantly smaller then the benefit than why not?

by 2rsf 5y ago

ceejayoz 5y ago

Read the Reddit post we're discussing. It's made quite clear that that's wonderful in theory, but not so great in practice.

zozbot234 5y ago
Sex workers are not made criminally liable in Sweden. All the Reddit post is saying is that outside people will not want to be associated with their business - which makes sense if every sex worker might possibly be a trafficked sex slave and no one can feasibly tell the difference beyond reasonable doubt.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Again, that's the point - that not being criminally liable doesn't prevent the authorities from treating them like criminals and making their lives difficult.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Ah, but are the authorities treating them like criminals or possible sex slaves? The Reddit post doesn't give any evidence for the former over the latter.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      #4 and #6 in particular sound targeted at the sex worker more than an attempt at preventing pimping/slavery.
      - 2rsf 5y ago
        #6 is simply a bank protecting itself, how would they differentiate a legal sex worker from a human trafficker? maybe in a country where some kind of prostitution is allowed they could show a certificate but not in Sweden. #4 is simply a fulfilling what the law and the government meant, prostitution is illegal and the best way to catch the offenders is waiting for them outside of the business.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        Surely you can see how "sex workers can't have bank accounts" winds up being punitive, even if it's an indirect result of the laws? Same for "what you do is legal, but we'll sit outside your house and arrest anyone going in-and-out".
        2rsf 5y ago
        You can't have a bank account if you have too many unexplained, to the bank, companies or branches in "not so nice" places. Hell, as a newcomer to Sweden you can't have a bank account until you have a personal number even though it is not necessary or legal to refuse. Police are not sitting outside anyone's house, they do detain sex buyers from time to time and the most sensible place to do that is outside of the business
- watwut 5y ago
  Their clients are tho. So going to police endangers clients, so prostitute have to be reallu careful about it. Cause that sounds like sure way to loose clients.
edrxty 5y ago
To add to this, it's important to understand that there's the law, then there's the mythology surrounding the law. People rarely read the actual statues but rather rely on a sort of word of mouth heuristic transfer. Think adoption of GDPR, there's the actual text, then there's the cargo culting around cookie banners. Similarly patent trolls. The law is cut and dry but the internet of alight with stories about how someone in the wrong won buy having more money. People routinely build models on what prosecutors will pursue and what kinds of violations will be successfully punished and these will frequently be orthogonal to the laws text. See any US discussion online about the ATF for instance. If people believe of can be made to believe they will be prosecuted for doing something that isn't illegal then it's just as illegal as if it actually was.
2rsf 5y ago
I have read it, I wouldn't comment otherwise I wouldn't want a neighbor operating a business that attract people, same as an hotel owner or guest. Criminalizing the owners is a step too far, I agree. Filming arrests? they also film traffic offenders and other crimes, the names remain confidential until the trial though Banks are worried to be involved in sex trafficking businesses, they don't have the tools to evaluate the legality of such a business so they simply ban all prostitutes. Similar rules apply BTW to large cash deposits or even unordinary sales of jewelry. I couldn't find anything in Swedish prohibiting (explicitly or implicitly) being a spouse to a prostitute, unless of course if said spouse advertised her services which is illegal TLDR; Sweden took it a bit too far maybe, but they also regulate alcohol sales so it makes sense. Personally? I don't care too much, unless (and I haven't checked) someone can prove to me that legalizing prostitution can help reduce violence, rape etc in some way. I have the same opinion about legalizing some drugs- if the damages if significantly smaller then the benefit than why not?