4 ms·

so you are in favor of legalizing prostitution?

by 2rsf 5y ago

danbruc 5y ago
Why should prostitution be illegal?
- creamytaco 5y ago
  Human trafficking. Prostitution is a lucrative racket for organized crime groups and unlike drug legalization, making it legal makes it _easier_ for organized crime to control it. The legalization of prostitution in Austria resulted in a greater increase in illegal sex work: “It indirectly supports the spreading of the illegal market in the sex industry,” the report concluded. “Organized crime has flourished and increased its influence in the sex industry.” https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/2005/360488/IPOL-JOIN_ET(2005)360488_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/20...
  - danbruc 5y ago
    Then crack down on human trafficking. Making something illegal that should not be illegal to solve a different issue should be one of the last options, not the first one.
    - creamytaco 5y ago
      Decisions should be made and laws passed based on real-world projected efficacy and data-driven feedback, not wishful thinking.
    - 2rsf 5y ago
      I haven't seen any data yet, what's the percentage of human trafficking prostitutes? how many prostitutes are forced to work and haven't chosen that? what's the violence rate toward prostitutes (even the linked reddit channel shows not insignificant number)? I am aware that some women are fully aware of what they are doing, and won't regret it but how many don't?
      - danbruc 5y ago
        How high would the rate have to be? Sure, if 99% of prostitution is forced prostitution I might be willing to say make it illegal but even then I am not really feeling good about it, I am still interfering with the free choice of the remaining 1%. But one might argue that life will never be totally fair and the 99% are so much better off that we can justify the collateral damage we do to the 1%. But I can not really say how high or low the fraction would have to be, are 10% to much, are 50% acceptable?
        2rsf 5y ago
        Is there free choice in modern democratic societies? Not at all, the state decide for you on abortion, marriage, car safety, gun usage and even what medications can get used (pseudoephedrine is not sold in Sweden!) so why not prostitution if (and only if) data shows that it's beneficial? As to what percentage the answer like everything else is whatever the winning party in the elections think
        danbruc 5y ago
        No society is perfect, but existing failures should not be the standard or justification for future changes. And there will probably never be universal consensus on everything because many policies are, at least to an certain extend, a matter of personal preference. Whether you want the state to be involved in something is often a matter of personal preference, do you prefer universal healthcare, do you prefer private health insurance, or are you willing to take the risk and have no health insurance at all? At least at first glance there is no single right answer to such questions and letting everyone decide is also not generally an option, for example if all healthy people get cheap private health insurance then universal healthcare does not work. And your preferences are often a consequence of who you are, if you are healthy and wealthy and have a good job, then it is easy to prefer a state that does not want your money and lets you decide freely. If you are poor or have health issues or a high risk of being unemployed then you might reasonable prefer a stronger state. What you should be actually doing to decide your position in such matters is using the veil of ignorance, what policies would you want implemented if you were not yet born and you did not know whether you will be born into the richest family, or the poorest, or what sex or skin color you will have. So even in questions of personal preferences one can at least to some degree be more objective by considering different points of view. So if the state decides for you that does not necessarily mean that the state acts arbitrarily, it might just optimize for different goals. And those might be arbitrary preferences by the people in power but there might also be sound reasoning behind and the resulting policy just does not align with your personal preferences. And sure, if there is some sound reasoning behind making prostitution illegal, then one should do this. But if the reasoning behind making prostitution illegal is to limit human trafficking then I do not see how you can have the resources to harass all the prostitutes but can not target human trafficking specifically and keep prostitution legal. But this might admittedly just be ignorance on my side.
- 2rsf 5y ago
  good question, I have many answers but they are not good enough to justify a law. Since I am not a libertarian and I think that the state should have some control over their citizens I can understand why the state objects prostitution under the assumption that most (or many) sex works don't (or wouldn't) choose this lifestyle voluntarily. I also in favor of gun control, limiting SMS loans, limitations on drug usage (not sure to which level) etc. Huge disclaimer- I don't have any numbers or data to support my feelings, the fact that there is a community with 170k members worldwide (probably not all of them sex workers) which have positive online attitude towards selling sex doesn't mean that this is their real life attitude. Mental problems or financial hardships can push people to justify things they might regret later.
  - danbruc 5y ago
    But then address the underlying problems, offer better ways out of financial hardships than going into prostitution, require a psychological assessment before granting a work permit, ...
    - 2rsf 5y ago
      I can't argue bout that, and actually Sweden is not that bad at that
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Since I am not a libertarian and I think that the state should have some control over their citizens I can understand why the state objects prostitution under the assumption that most (or many) sex works don't (or wouldn't) choose this lifestyle voluntarily. It gets chosen because women have too few opportunities to make similar amounts of money any other way. Not giving women the right to sell sexual services condemns them to having no means to adequately support themselves. It doesn't protect them from anything at all. Think about why this conversation is always about women selling sex. Why is that? Why are sex workers almost universally female or assumed to be while their clients are almost universally male? That's the real issue here and it doesn't get fixed by criminalizing sex work.
3np 5y ago
It's already legal. Buying sex isn't, though. It's basically the inverse of some other countries' narcotics laws where it's illegal to sell but legal to buy.
standardUser 5y ago
No one should face legal penalties for consensually buying or selling sex.
- 2rsf 5y ago
  for selling sex? definitely no. for buying? maybe, but only if your country monitors and supervise prostitution in some way. As much as I don't like it a model where there are licensed brothels could work
  - standardUser 5y ago
    Why do you "maybe" think the state should penalize individuals for consensually paying for sex? And isn't it an indefensible hypocrisy to allow sex to be sold but not to be bought? That situation is basically a state-mandated black market.
    - 2rsf 5y ago
      No, Society (well, Sweden in this case) is against prostitution and want to eliminate or at least minimize it. It's the same with drugs laws or illegal downloads- criminalization of this side or another is just tactics, in this case to hurt prostitutes less
      - standardUser 5y ago
        The law in Sweden ensures a black market for sex work. Much like drug laws, sex work can never be eliminated in a free society. The primary consequences of the futile attempt to eliminate these things is to reduce freedom and seriously harm individuals.
        2rsf 5y ago
        So is theft, rape and tax evasion
        5y ago
Karsteski 5y ago
I'm in favour of making as few things as possible illegal. Which means anything voluntary. Hence sex work, anything to do with drugs (children are obviously a different story), moving out to the woods and building some random shack to live, what have you.

so you are in favor of legalizing prostitution?

by 2rsf 5y ago

so you are in favor of legalizing prostitution?

danbruc 5y ago

Why should prostitution be illegal?

creamytaco 5y ago
Human trafficking. Prostitution is a lucrative racket for organized crime groups and unlike drug legalization, making it legal makes it _easier_ for organized crime to control it. The legalization of prostitution in Austria resulted in a greater increase in illegal sex work: “It indirectly supports the spreading of the illegal market in the sex industry,” the report concluded. “Organized crime has flourished and increased its influence in the sex industry.” https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/2005/360488/IPOL-JOIN_ET(2005)360488_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/etudes/join/20...
- danbruc 5y ago
  Then crack down on human trafficking. Making something illegal that should not be illegal to solve a different issue should be one of the last options, not the first one.
  - creamytaco 5y ago
    Decisions should be made and laws passed based on real-world projected efficacy and data-driven feedback, not wishful thinking.
  - 2rsf 5y ago
    I haven't seen any data yet, what's the percentage of human trafficking prostitutes? how many prostitutes are forced to work and haven't chosen that? what's the violence rate toward prostitutes (even the linked reddit channel shows not insignificant number)? I am aware that some women are fully aware of what they are doing, and won't regret it but how many don't?
    - danbruc 5y ago
      How high would the rate have to be? Sure, if 99% of prostitution is forced prostitution I might be willing to say make it illegal but even then I am not really feeling good about it, I am still interfering with the free choice of the remaining 1%. But one might argue that life will never be totally fair and the 99% are so much better off that we can justify the collateral damage we do to the 1%. But I can not really say how high or low the fraction would have to be, are 10% to much, are 50% acceptable?
      - 2rsf 5y ago
        Is there free choice in modern democratic societies? Not at all, the state decide for you on abortion, marriage, car safety, gun usage and even what medications can get used (pseudoephedrine is not sold in Sweden!) so why not prostitution if (and only if) data shows that it's beneficial? As to what percentage the answer like everything else is whatever the winning party in the elections think
        danbruc 5y ago
        No society is perfect, but existing failures should not be the standard or justification for future changes. And there will probably never be universal consensus on everything because many policies are, at least to an certain extend, a matter of personal preference. Whether you want the state to be involved in something is often a matter of personal preference, do you prefer universal healthcare, do you prefer private health insurance, or are you willing to take the risk and have no health insurance at all? At least at first glance there is no single right answer to such questions and letting everyone decide is also not generally an option, for example if all healthy people get cheap private health insurance then universal healthcare does not work. And your preferences are often a consequence of who you are, if you are healthy and wealthy and have a good job, then it is easy to prefer a state that does not want your money and lets you decide freely. If you are poor or have health issues or a high risk of being unemployed then you might reasonable prefer a stronger state. What you should be actually doing to decide your position in such matters is using the veil of ignorance, what policies would you want implemented if you were not yet born and you did not know whether you will be born into the richest family, or the poorest, or what sex or skin color you will have. So even in questions of personal preferences one can at least to some degree be more objective by considering different points of view. So if the state decides for you that does not necessarily mean that the state acts arbitrarily, it might just optimize for different goals. And those might be arbitrary preferences by the people in power but there might also be sound reasoning behind and the resulting policy just does not align with your personal preferences. And sure, if there is some sound reasoning behind making prostitution illegal, then one should do this. But if the reasoning behind making prostitution illegal is to limit human trafficking then I do not see how you can have the resources to harass all the prostitutes but can not target human trafficking specifically and keep prostitution legal. But this might admittedly just be ignorance on my side.
2rsf 5y ago
good question, I have many answers but they are not good enough to justify a law. Since I am not a libertarian and I think that the state should have some control over their citizens I can understand why the state objects prostitution under the assumption that most (or many) sex works don't (or wouldn't) choose this lifestyle voluntarily. I also in favor of gun control, limiting SMS loans, limitations on drug usage (not sure to which level) etc. Huge disclaimer- I don't have any numbers or data to support my feelings, the fact that there is a community with 170k members worldwide (probably not all of them sex workers) which have positive online attitude towards selling sex doesn't mean that this is their real life attitude. Mental problems or financial hardships can push people to justify things they might regret later.
- danbruc 5y ago
  But then address the underlying problems, offer better ways out of financial hardships than going into prostitution, require a psychological assessment before granting a work permit, ...
  - 2rsf 5y ago
    I can't argue bout that, and actually Sweden is not that bad at that
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Since I am not a libertarian and I think that the state should have some control over their citizens I can understand why the state objects prostitution under the assumption that most (or many) sex works don't (or wouldn't) choose this lifestyle voluntarily. It gets chosen because women have too few opportunities to make similar amounts of money any other way. Not giving women the right to sell sexual services condemns them to having no means to adequately support themselves. It doesn't protect them from anything at all. Think about why this conversation is always about women selling sex. Why is that? Why are sex workers almost universally female or assumed to be while their clients are almost universally male? That's the real issue here and it doesn't get fixed by criminalizing sex work.

3np 5y ago

It's already legal. Buying sex isn't, though. It's basically the inverse of some other countries' narcotics laws where it's illegal to sell but legal to buy.

standardUser 5y ago

No one should face legal penalties for consensually buying or selling sex.

2rsf 5y ago
for selling sex? definitely no. for buying? maybe, but only if your country monitors and supervise prostitution in some way. As much as I don't like it a model where there are licensed brothels could work
- standardUser 5y ago
  Why do you "maybe" think the state should penalize individuals for consensually paying for sex? And isn't it an indefensible hypocrisy to allow sex to be sold but not to be bought? That situation is basically a state-mandated black market.
  - 2rsf 5y ago
    No, Society (well, Sweden in this case) is against prostitution and want to eliminate or at least minimize it. It's the same with drugs laws or illegal downloads- criminalization of this side or another is just tactics, in this case to hurt prostitutes less
    - standardUser 5y ago
      The law in Sweden ensures a black market for sex work. Much like drug laws, sex work can never be eliminated in a free society. The primary consequences of the futile attempt to eliminate these things is to reduce freedom and seriously harm individuals.
      - 2rsf 5y ago
        So is theft, rape and tax evasion
        5y ago

Karsteski 5y ago

I'm in favour of making as few things as possible illegal. Which means anything voluntary. Hence sex work, anything to do with drugs (children are obviously a different story), moving out to the woods and building some random shack to live, what have you.