11 ms·

> victimless crimes I am not sure if it is really that clear cut. Germany has pretty liberal laws around prostitution and there are massive problems with human

by rerx 5y ago

> victimless crimes I am not sure if it is really that clear cut. Germany has pretty liberal laws around prostitution and there are massive problems with human trafficking. Many women do not do the work out of their own volition.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Clamping down on sex workers as described in the Reddit post makes human trafficking more likely, though, as victims of it can't trust the authorities will help them.
- svieira 5y ago
  Isn't that why laws should go after the seller and the purchaser not the product (especially in humans-are-the-product situations like this)?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    The Reddit post in question pretty clearly describes the consequences of that approach; very substantial impacts on the sex worker.
  - admax88q 5y ago
    if your manager and customer are criminals, whats are the odds youll be treated well?
- rerx 5y ago
  Yes, I don't think the "Nordic model" is a good final answer. But I am not sure if there are more problems with human trafficking in Sweden than in Germany (of course geography plays a role, too).
- 2rsf 5y ago
  (not an expert, just Swedish) it is not illegal to be prostitute in Sweden, you are not allowed to buy it. So I guess there is no problem for a human trafficking victim to go to the police since they don't break any law themselves
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Read the Reddit post we're discussing. It's made quite clear that that's wonderful in theory, but not so great in practice.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Sex workers are not made criminally liable in Sweden. All the Reddit post is saying is that outside people will not want to be associated with their business - which makes sense if every sex worker might possibly be a trafficked sex slave and no one can feasibly tell the difference beyond reasonable doubt.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        Again, that's the point - that not being criminally liable doesn't prevent the authorities from treating them like criminals and making their lives difficult.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Ah, but are the authorities treating them like criminals or possible sex slaves? The Reddit post doesn't give any evidence for the former over the latter.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        #4 and #6 in particular sound targeted at the sex worker more than an attempt at preventing pimping/slavery.
        2rsf 5y ago
        #6 is simply a bank protecting itself, how would they differentiate a legal sex worker from a human trafficker? maybe in a country where some kind of prostitution is allowed they could show a certificate but not in Sweden. #4 is simply a fulfilling what the law and the government meant, prostitution is illegal and the best way to catch the offenders is waiting for them outside of the business.
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  According to the data we have, that is not true. From Harvard Law School [1]: > Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. There's a lot more nuance to it if you read the article or the actual study. I am in general for legalizing sex work, but if we want to protect sex workers we can't pretend legalization is a panacea. [1] https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-...
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    This is out of date. Working conditions are also better in Germany, and could stand to keep improving. EDIT: here are some recent improvements in Germany according to the wiki: The Criminal Code was amended in October 2016 to criminalise clients of trafficked or coerced prostitutes. This change was led by Social Democrat Eva Högl. The Prostituiertenschutzgesetz (Prostitutes Protection Act) came into force in July 2017. Amongst the provision of the Act are registration of prostitutes, annual health checks and mandatory condom use. Brothel operators also need to register and prove their 'good conduct' before registration. The legislation also places restrictions on advertising. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legal_situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legal_... As patrons stick with the well-regulated outlets, they won't fund the competing mob-controlled ones, and trafficking will slow. The conditions were just too easy to exploit at the outset.
    - jakelazaroff 5y ago
      Feel free to respond with a more recent study! I would be very happy to be proven wrong here. Response to edit: I’m glad Germany is making progressive changes, but I’d like to see data (or at least firsthand anecdotes) that the amended laws are working as intended.
jascii 5y ago
Is there more human trafficking, or is the human trafficking more visible under the liberal laws?
mtnGoat 5y ago
Many? What percentage I wonder? Through my last job for over a decade I had access to thousands of sex workers, many in Germany. I will attest, on everything I own, not a single one was doing it against her will. I do not doubt there are some being forced, but this idea that it’s a large percentage… I can not get behind. I’ve been on the inside and never saw anything remotely like it. And since I wasn’t a client I spoke openly with the girls and discussed things like this with them. Most were from Eastern Europe and we’re just stacking cash. The Philippines I came across some questionable stuff, but that was due to extreme poverty. South and Central America were not quite as above board as Europe. Frankly, America is the worst, and that’s why Americans have these strange overly negative views of sex work. Our laws make it dangerous and thus dangerous people are attracted to it.
slothtrop 5y ago
Human trafficking is it's own problem, it's a constant. It would be rendered a moot point if laws were permissive enough to allow sex workers to organize in such a way that they could operate under high quality conditions, e.g. reputable brothels. The foreign mob who traffics would then have to compete with institutions that have a reputation among the populace for good working conditions. The issues surrounding drugs are similar. Narco states and mob control don't disappear overnight from legalization, but the increase in legitimate avenues takes over their market share over time. Even in countries were laws are relatively more permissive, operations are relegated to the streets, and the Nordic Model has resulted in terrible working conditions.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >The foreign mob who traffics would then have to compete with institutions that have a reputation among the populace for good working conditions. If the brothel organization or the .gov adds too much overhead cost there will be ample room for the criminals' overhead. Weed is an example of this. The .gov couldn't resist taxing the crap out of it so there's still a black market.
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    Of course there's still a black market for marijuana. There's a black market for tobacco and liquor too. But it will be reduced to a specter of what it was.
- bart_spoon 5y ago
  > Human trafficking is it's own problem, it's a constant. This isn't necessarily true though. Research has shown that increasing legalization for sex work leads to both more "reputable" sex work and more sex trafficking.
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    The research doesn't show that it "scales" with legalization, it shows that quasi-legalization results in more increases in traffic than full prohibition. That's not surprising.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> problems with human trafficking But that's different - kidnapping is not a victimless crime, and human trafficking is investigated and prosecuted entirely differently.
Karsteski 5y ago
Human trafficking is an actual crime and should be worked on. Doesn't mean someone doing what they want with their own body should be criminalized.
- GPerson 5y ago
  What if legalizing prostitution has the secondary effect of greatly increasing the amount human trafficking, which the previous poster seems to be suggesting is the case in Germany? Wouldn’t making prostitution legal be the opposite of working on human trafficking then?
  - Karsteski 5y ago
    Address the actual crime, and not the result of a part of society. Would you also like fast food and sugar-filled foods to be made illegal because they directly lead to millions of early deaths and cost large amounts of money to healthcare?
    - GPerson 5y ago
      If the result of banning unhealthy fast food is the saving of millions lives and massive healthcare cost reduction then I would support it. I assume different, necessarily healthier, restaurants would fill the void, so they wouldn’t be missed. I’m not sure why you would think otherwise. You’re talking to someone who clearly prioritizes personal agency less than overall well-being or positive outcome in certain cases.

by rerx 5y ago

ceejayoz 5y ago

Clamping down on sex workers as described in the Reddit post makes human trafficking more likely, though, as victims of it can't trust the authorities will help them.

svieira 5y ago
Isn't that why laws should go after the seller and the purchaser not the product (especially in humans-are-the-product situations like this)?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  The Reddit post in question pretty clearly describes the consequences of that approach; very substantial impacts on the sex worker.
- admax88q 5y ago
  if your manager and customer are criminals, whats are the odds youll be treated well?
rerx 5y ago
Yes, I don't think the "Nordic model" is a good final answer. But I am not sure if there are more problems with human trafficking in Sweden than in Germany (of course geography plays a role, too).
2rsf 5y ago
(not an expert, just Swedish) it is not illegal to be prostitute in Sweden, you are not allowed to buy it. So I guess there is no problem for a human trafficking victim to go to the police since they don't break any law themselves
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Read the Reddit post we're discussing. It's made quite clear that that's wonderful in theory, but not so great in practice.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Sex workers are not made criminally liable in Sweden. All the Reddit post is saying is that outside people will not want to be associated with their business - which makes sense if every sex worker might possibly be a trafficked sex slave and no one can feasibly tell the difference beyond reasonable doubt.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      Again, that's the point - that not being criminally liable doesn't prevent the authorities from treating them like criminals and making their lives difficult.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Ah, but are the authorities treating them like criminals or possible sex slaves? The Reddit post doesn't give any evidence for the former over the latter.
        ceejayoz 5y ago
        #4 and #6 in particular sound targeted at the sex worker more than an attempt at preventing pimping/slavery.
        2rsf 5y ago
        #6 is simply a bank protecting itself, how would they differentiate a legal sex worker from a human trafficker? maybe in a country where some kind of prostitution is allowed they could show a certificate but not in Sweden. #4 is simply a fulfilling what the law and the government meant, prostitution is illegal and the best way to catch the offenders is waiting for them outside of the business.
jakelazaroff 5y ago
According to the data we have, that is not true. From Harvard Law School [1]: > Countries with legalized prostitution are associated with higher human trafficking inflows than countries where prostitution is prohibited. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution, i.e. expansion of the market, outweighs the substitution effect, where legal sex workers are favored over illegal workers. On average, countries with legalized prostitution report a greater incidence of human trafficking inflows. There's a lot more nuance to it if you read the article or the actual study. I am in general for legalizing sex work, but if we want to protect sex workers we can't pretend legalization is a panacea. [1] https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-...
- slothtrop 5y ago
  This is out of date. Working conditions are also better in Germany, and could stand to keep improving. EDIT: here are some recent improvements in Germany according to the wiki: The Criminal Code was amended in October 2016 to criminalise clients of trafficked or coerced prostitutes. This change was led by Social Democrat Eva Högl. The Prostituiertenschutzgesetz (Prostitutes Protection Act) came into force in July 2017. Amongst the provision of the Act are registration of prostitutes, annual health checks and mandatory condom use. Brothel operators also need to register and prove their 'good conduct' before registration. The legislation also places restrictions on advertising. -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legal_situation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legal_... As patrons stick with the well-regulated outlets, they won't fund the competing mob-controlled ones, and trafficking will slow. The conditions were just too easy to exploit at the outset.
  - jakelazaroff 5y ago
    Feel free to respond with a more recent study! I would be very happy to be proven wrong here. Response to edit: I’m glad Germany is making progressive changes, but I’d like to see data (or at least firsthand anecdotes) that the amended laws are working as intended.

jascii 5y ago

Is there more human trafficking, or is the human trafficking more visible under the liberal laws?

mtnGoat 5y ago

Many? What percentage I wonder? Through my last job for over a decade I had access to thousands of sex workers, many in Germany. I will attest, on everything I own, not a single one was doing it against her will. I do not doubt there are some being forced, but this idea that it’s a large percentage… I can not get behind. I’ve been on the inside and never saw anything remotely like it. And since I wasn’t a client I spoke openly with the girls and discussed things like this with them. Most were from Eastern Europe and we’re just stacking cash. The Philippines I came across some questionable stuff, but that was due to extreme poverty. South and Central America were not quite as above board as Europe. Frankly, America is the worst, and that’s why Americans have these strange overly negative views of sex work. Our laws make it dangerous and thus dangerous people are attracted to it.

slothtrop 5y ago

Human trafficking is it's own problem, it's a constant. It would be rendered a moot point if laws were permissive enough to allow sex workers to organize in such a way that they could operate under high quality conditions, e.g. reputable brothels. The foreign mob who traffics would then have to compete with institutions that have a reputation among the populace for good working conditions. The issues surrounding drugs are similar. Narco states and mob control don't disappear overnight from legalization, but the increase in legitimate avenues takes over their market share over time. Even in countries were laws are relatively more permissive, operations are relegated to the streets, and the Nordic Model has resulted in terrible working conditions.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>The foreign mob who traffics would then have to compete with institutions that have a reputation among the populace for good working conditions. If the brothel organization or the .gov adds too much overhead cost there will be ample room for the criminals' overhead. Weed is an example of this. The .gov couldn't resist taxing the crap out of it so there's still a black market.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  Of course there's still a black market for marijuana. There's a black market for tobacco and liquor too. But it will be reduced to a specter of what it was.
bart_spoon 5y ago
> Human trafficking is it's own problem, it's a constant. This isn't necessarily true though. Research has shown that increasing legalization for sex work leads to both more "reputable" sex work and more sex trafficking.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  The research doesn't show that it "scales" with legalization, it shows that quasi-legalization results in more increases in traffic than full prohibition. That's not surprising.

commandlinefan 5y ago

> problems with human trafficking But that's different - kidnapping is not a victimless crime, and human trafficking is investigated and prosecuted entirely differently.

Karsteski 5y ago

Human trafficking is an actual crime and should be worked on. Doesn't mean someone doing what they want with their own body should be criminalized.

GPerson 5y ago
What if legalizing prostitution has the secondary effect of greatly increasing the amount human trafficking, which the previous poster seems to be suggesting is the case in Germany? Wouldn’t making prostitution legal be the opposite of working on human trafficking then?
- Karsteski 5y ago
  Address the actual crime, and not the result of a part of society. Would you also like fast food and sugar-filled foods to be made illegal because they directly lead to millions of early deaths and cost large amounts of money to healthcare?
  - GPerson 5y ago
    If the result of banning unhealthy fast food is the saving of millions lives and massive healthcare cost reduction then I would support it. I assume different, necessarily healthier, restaurants would fill the void, so they wouldn’t be missed. I’m not sure why you would think otherwise. You’re talking to someone who clearly prioritizes personal agency less than overall well-being or positive outcome in certain cases.