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Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, ho

Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues?

threatofrain 5y ago
So you are saying you choose to lead with elite trans sports, a niche phenomena of a niche phenomena, in order to demonstrate that you will be lambasted with abuse? And that is how you choose to lead with your speech? And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance with civility, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time?
- Moodles 5y ago
  > And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? That's all i'm saying. It's pretty obvious having an objection to Fallon Fox fighting biological women has more to it than pure hatred and bigotry towards trans women. If the gender ideology crowd can't acknowledge that or debate that civilly, I really see no chance of debating less clearcut topics. I deliberately chose it as the most extreme example I could think of to demonstrate how unreasonable and emotional I think that segment of the political spectrum is. > So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time? The latter, but if you want to talk about the former we can do that too.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    What do you have to say about the primary phenomena of clinical suffering? Its etiologies and its course in medical debate across the west? That is a discussion which hits squarely on "What is trans?" But when you lead with Joe Rogan, I'd have to ask, is Joe Rogan the best you have?
    - Moodles 5y ago
      I have no idea what you're saying. I think clinical suffering is bad? I have not mentioned Joe Rogan. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
      - pixxel 5y ago
        Like racist, nazi, or phobe, Joe Rogan is used by certain types as a dismissive. They had that one locked and loaded without looking at the target.
        Jotra7 5y ago
        Anyone listening to Joe Rogan is showing the quality of their brain.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        I think threatofrain is proving your point. Their approach seems to be to try to find something, anything, that they can argue, no matter how unrelated to the point at hand, and to keep arguing forever. Points that they can't answer get silently dropped, with no admission that the other side has a point. I've seen this pattern before. At best it's someone so committed to a position that they are determined to do battle rather than actually have a conversation. At worst it's someone arguing in bad faith. Or, I suppose, most charitably, it's someone who lost the thread of the conversation and replied to the wrong person.
        threatofrain 5y ago
        > Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues? I'm not the person who setup a discussion by leading with a tactical argument. If you want an argument on substance, you should lead with a proposition that you have something of substance to give, not that you have tactics to offer because you don't trust real conversation. There are very few cases of transgender elite sports. Leading with that discussion implies that you have very little to say on actual transgenderism, and it implies your taste in curation or how you choose to lead in a discussion. > What do you have to say about the primary phenomena of clinical suffering? Its etiologies and its course in medical debate across the west? That is a discussion which hits squarely on "What is trans?" I asked a question to invite display of expertise on the underlying primary subject -- actual transgenderism. The response is that medical suffering sucks. So far this debate has never elevated past the Joe Rogan level of discourse. You can look at any other branching thread to see the intellectually inspiring quality of opening discussion with trans elite sports.
TaylorAlexander 5y ago
People don’t like their identity being debated. Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans. There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for marginalized people. Trans people’s existence is not for you to challenge or debate. The best thing to do in situations like this is to let the marginalized people figure out what they need and then quietly listen to their conclusions. It’s not really something that’s there for you to “discuss”.
- textgel 5y ago
  Yes funnily enough those who wanted to "Just have a discussion" were the ones who forced us into this mess in the first place. People might not like "having their identity being debated" but people also don't like having their opportunities taken away or being forced into situations they don't feel comfortable in or ones that threaten their safety. I think the best thing for you to do in situations like this is quietly listen to the counter points being given to you and gently and wholesomely get your hands off of the people and their lives that you are reaching for. It's really not something you are entitled to have or control.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Trans people are not “reaching for” anyone’s lives they just want to be able to exist in society without being harassed.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Everyone here agrees that they oughtn't be harassed. We disagree on whether or not folks who disagree with trans activists have the right to speak on the matter.
      - textgel 5y ago

threatofrain 5y ago

So you are saying you choose to lead with elite trans sports, a niche phenomena of a niche phenomena, in order to demonstrate that you will be lambasted with abuse? And that is how you choose to lead with your speech? And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance with civility, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time?

Moodles 5y ago
> And you are saying if we can't discuss elite trans sports with nuance, then how can we discuss an even more nuanced topic than trans elite sports? That's all i'm saying. It's pretty obvious having an objection to Fallon Fox fighting biological women has more to it than pure hatred and bigotry towards trans women. If the gender ideology crowd can't acknowledge that or debate that civilly, I really see no chance of debating less clearcut topics. I deliberately chose it as the most extreme example I could think of to demonstrate how unreasonable and emotional I think that segment of the political spectrum is. > So did you want to discuss trans elite sports or were you trying to demonstrate that people cannot handle a conversation with greater nuance? Or both at the same time? The latter, but if you want to talk about the former we can do that too.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  What do you have to say about the primary phenomena of clinical suffering? Its etiologies and its course in medical debate across the west? That is a discussion which hits squarely on "What is trans?" But when you lead with Joe Rogan, I'd have to ask, is Joe Rogan the best you have?
  - Moodles 5y ago
    I have no idea what you're saying. I think clinical suffering is bad? I have not mentioned Joe Rogan. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
    - pixxel 5y ago
      Like racist, nazi, or phobe, Joe Rogan is used by certain types as a dismissive. They had that one locked and loaded without looking at the target.
      - Jotra7 5y ago
        Anyone listening to Joe Rogan is showing the quality of their brain.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      I think threatofrain is proving your point. Their approach seems to be to try to find something, anything, that they can argue, no matter how unrelated to the point at hand, and to keep arguing forever. Points that they can't answer get silently dropped, with no admission that the other side has a point. I've seen this pattern before. At best it's someone so committed to a position that they are determined to do battle rather than actually have a conversation. At worst it's someone arguing in bad faith. Or, I suppose, most charitably, it's someone who lost the thread of the conversation and replied to the wrong person.
      - threatofrain 5y ago
        > Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues? I'm not the person who setup a discussion by leading with a tactical argument. If you want an argument on substance, you should lead with a proposition that you have something of substance to give, not that you have tactics to offer because you don't trust real conversation. There are very few cases of transgender elite sports. Leading with that discussion implies that you have very little to say on actual transgenderism, and it implies your taste in curation or how you choose to lead in a discussion. > What do you have to say about the primary phenomena of clinical suffering? Its etiologies and its course in medical debate across the west? That is a discussion which hits squarely on "What is trans?" I asked a question to invite display of expertise on the underlying primary subject -- actual transgenderism. The response is that medical suffering sucks. So far this debate has never elevated past the Joe Rogan level of discourse. You can look at any other branching thread to see the intellectually inspiring quality of opening discussion with trans elite sports.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago

People don’t like their identity being debated. Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans. There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for marginalized people. Trans people’s existence is not for you to challenge or debate. The best thing to do in situations like this is to let the marginalized people figure out what they need and then quietly listen to their conclusions. It’s not really something that’s there for you to “discuss”.

textgel 5y ago
Yes funnily enough those who wanted to "Just have a discussion" were the ones who forced us into this mess in the first place. People might not like "having their identity being debated" but people also don't like having their opportunities taken away or being forced into situations they don't feel comfortable in or ones that threaten their safety. I think the best thing for you to do in situations like this is quietly listen to the counter points being given to you and gently and wholesomely get your hands off of the people and their lives that you are reaching for. It's really not something you are entitled to have or control.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Trans people are not “reaching for” anyone’s lives they just want to be able to exist in society without being harassed.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Everyone here agrees that they oughtn't be harassed. We disagree on whether or not folks who disagree with trans activists have the right to speak on the matter.
    - textgel 5y ago