4 ms·

The idea is to set up rhetorical either-or's and then browbeat the majority into silence: Either you support unlimited immigration or you are a racist. Either

The idea is to set up rhetorical either-or's and then browbeat the majority into silence: Either you support unlimited immigration or you are a racist. Either you are 100% on board with the entire vaccine schedule or you are an anti-vaxxer. Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too). And so on. Say what one will, but it's effective. I think one reason it works so well in the US is our puritan heritage, which has always had a strong manichean current in it. As the elites lost their religion, they retained this characteristic and it now manifests itself in the secular realm.

zozbot234 5y ago
Sometimes the either-or's are not just either-or's, they're catch 22's. Trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria and denying that is transphobic, but if you say trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria you're a transmedicalist truscum. Checkmate atheists!
- underseacables 5y ago
  Transgender is a psychiatric disorder with potential medical treatment. The problem is that it’s also a lifeline for people who are seeking an identity, and they become hyper sensitive to any questioning of something that, again, is all in their heads.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    Being transgender is as "curable" as homosexuality.
    - have2throwaway 5y ago
      For many years I experienced gender dysphoric feelings. Did that make me "transgender"? I used to believe that I was, even though deeply closeted. I didn't seek help. I didn't transition. I wanted to seek help but was too scared. What happened? Well, after some years, the gender dysphoric feelings went away. That happens sometimes – gender dysphoric feelings can spontaneously remit, go away by themselves. I don't have them any more. I know from the literature I am not unique, see e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10929795/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10929795/ If it can happen spontaneously, is it impossible that sometimes therapy might speed that spontaneous process along? Would that be a "cure"? I have struggled with obsessive behaviour ever since I was a child. I probably have undiagnosed ASD (I have many other traits of ASD than just obsessions). I'm actually on a waiting-list to see a psychiatrist for an ASD assessment. Some of my obsessions are more ASD-like (pleasurable rather than anxious), others more OCD-like (anxiety-driven), so sometimes I wonder if I might have OCD too. I'll let my psychiatrist work that one out, when I see him. But what I realise now is that my gender dysphoric feelings were just another one of these obsessions. And like most of my obsessions, with time they fade and get replaced with new ones. If I had this self-understanding 15, 20 years ago, I think my gender dysphoric feelings might have remitted faster. If I'd sought help back then, would they have helped me gain that self-understanding of my own obsessiveness? Or would they have encouraged me towards transition? I'm glad I never transitioned, I think I'd be in a far worse place now if I had. But I worry with this idea of "affirmative care", people like me may be encouraged in that direction whether it is the right thing for them or not. What about your comparison with homosexuality? Does homosexuality ever "spontaneously remit" in the same way that gender dysphoric feelings sometimes do? I honestly have no idea. My feelings about my birth gender (male) have waxed and waned, but a constant for me has been attraction to women with never more than fleeting feelings for men; given that, the equivalent question for homosexuality is beyond my personal experience. (Sorry for the throwaway. I hope one can understand why. I wish I had the courage to talk about this stuff under my real name. I hope that one of these days I will, but not today.)
      - progman32 5y ago
        > If it can happen spontaneously, is it impossible that sometimes therapy might speed that spontaneous process along? Would that be a "cure"? I think we need to be careful and precise when using the word "cure". Is one outcome preferable over another? Preferable to who, and why? What, precisely, are we curing? What effect does using the word "cure" have on people? Anecdote: When I realized I had dysphoric feelings, my mental health _improved_ overnight and has stayed that way. I took up piano. Became more expressive. I even began working out! What would my cure be? Everyone's different - as you seem to suggest (correct me), pushing for self-understanding is a good way to navigate this. I think my personal positive outcome is in no small part due to key people in my life making it clear that no outcome is preferred over another, and that they'll support me no matter what I find. I count myself as extremely privileged in this regard, and by my reckoning anything we can do to foster this kind of support is time well spent. > But what I realise now is that my gender dysphoric feelings were just another one of these obsessions. That may be. And that's OK. Very few people figure everything out the very first try. And people can sometimes change over time. But equally, sometimes they don't. In any case, we can't expect people to understand themselves if we take away the tools to learn. In some sense, aren't these transient obsessions a vehicle for experimentation and learning? For mine, they are. You, have2throwaway, are valid. Here's to your journey.
        have2throwaway 5y ago
        > Is one outcome preferable over another? Preferable to who, and why? For me personally, I believe the outcome in which these feelings went away without me acting on them (by which I especially mean hormones and surgery) is much better for me than one in which they stuck around and I did act on them. And I'm sure I'm not the only person for which this true. On the other hand, I totally accept there are other people for whom the feelings are unlikely to ever go away, and for those people, if they believe that acting on them is the best option for them, it isn't my place to disagree with them. The problem is how do we tell the two groups apart? How do we help people having these feelings work out which group they belong to? I don't have any confidence that the current system is good at doing that. Part of the reason why, is that those who transition have their stories celebrated by much (of course, not all) of the culture, while those who remit without transitioning (or who detransition) are mostly hidden in the shadows. That ends up presenting the former stories as more valid than the later, something which I see as problematic.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> Say what one will, but it's effective. Yes and no. Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right. It's more effective at convincing people that you're completely unreasonable, and that it's better to just not talk to you at all.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  "Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right." I see things differently, through the lens of power and influence. How much power does the opposition have if it's been effectively silenced? Members of the other side certainly aren't convinced of your cause, but what difference does it make? You've already gotten them to submit. As time goes on the younger people will pretty much only hear from the intolerant folks because the people who were silenced can't propagate their worldview effectively.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Fair point - if it continues for long. I'm hoping that the pendulum swings back before we get to that point... but maybe I'm just a crazy optimist.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
908B64B197 5y ago
> Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too). Interesting how media coverage completely changed. Under the previous administration it was considered racist to even mention the theory and it's proponents were considered racists or conspiracy theorists. Why such a sudden change? China certainly didn't change its position on the issue...
- Udik 5y ago
  > Why such a sudden change? Trump is gone. Since he was the main proponent of the idea, and he was despised by half of the nation, they had to despise the idea too, even if it was quite fitting in the context of the anti-China rhetoric of the last few years. Now Trump is gone and the other half of the US is free to pick up his ideas.
- layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
  You're onto something... Keep lurking!

zozbot234 5y ago

Sometimes the either-or's are not just either-or's, they're catch 22's. Trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria and denying that is transphobic, but if you say trans people are suffering from gender dysphoria you're a transmedicalist truscum. Checkmate atheists!

underseacables 5y ago
Transgender is a psychiatric disorder with potential medical treatment. The problem is that it’s also a lifeline for people who are seeking an identity, and they become hyper sensitive to any questioning of something that, again, is all in their heads.
- anoncake 5y ago
  Being transgender is as "curable" as homosexuality.
  - have2throwaway 5y ago
    For many years I experienced gender dysphoric feelings. Did that make me "transgender"? I used to believe that I was, even though deeply closeted. I didn't seek help. I didn't transition. I wanted to seek help but was too scared. What happened? Well, after some years, the gender dysphoric feelings went away. That happens sometimes – gender dysphoric feelings can spontaneously remit, go away by themselves. I don't have them any more. I know from the literature I am not unique, see e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10929795/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10929795/ If it can happen spontaneously, is it impossible that sometimes therapy might speed that spontaneous process along? Would that be a "cure"? I have struggled with obsessive behaviour ever since I was a child. I probably have undiagnosed ASD (I have many other traits of ASD than just obsessions). I'm actually on a waiting-list to see a psychiatrist for an ASD assessment. Some of my obsessions are more ASD-like (pleasurable rather than anxious), others more OCD-like (anxiety-driven), so sometimes I wonder if I might have OCD too. I'll let my psychiatrist work that one out, when I see him. But what I realise now is that my gender dysphoric feelings were just another one of these obsessions. And like most of my obsessions, with time they fade and get replaced with new ones. If I had this self-understanding 15, 20 years ago, I think my gender dysphoric feelings might have remitted faster. If I'd sought help back then, would they have helped me gain that self-understanding of my own obsessiveness? Or would they have encouraged me towards transition? I'm glad I never transitioned, I think I'd be in a far worse place now if I had. But I worry with this idea of "affirmative care", people like me may be encouraged in that direction whether it is the right thing for them or not. What about your comparison with homosexuality? Does homosexuality ever "spontaneously remit" in the same way that gender dysphoric feelings sometimes do? I honestly have no idea. My feelings about my birth gender (male) have waxed and waned, but a constant for me has been attraction to women with never more than fleeting feelings for men; given that, the equivalent question for homosexuality is beyond my personal experience. (Sorry for the throwaway. I hope one can understand why. I wish I had the courage to talk about this stuff under my real name. I hope that one of these days I will, but not today.)
    - progman32 5y ago
      > If it can happen spontaneously, is it impossible that sometimes therapy might speed that spontaneous process along? Would that be a "cure"? I think we need to be careful and precise when using the word "cure". Is one outcome preferable over another? Preferable to who, and why? What, precisely, are we curing? What effect does using the word "cure" have on people? Anecdote: When I realized I had dysphoric feelings, my mental health _improved_ overnight and has stayed that way. I took up piano. Became more expressive. I even began working out! What would my cure be? Everyone's different - as you seem to suggest (correct me), pushing for self-understanding is a good way to navigate this. I think my personal positive outcome is in no small part due to key people in my life making it clear that no outcome is preferred over another, and that they'll support me no matter what I find. I count myself as extremely privileged in this regard, and by my reckoning anything we can do to foster this kind of support is time well spent. > But what I realise now is that my gender dysphoric feelings were just another one of these obsessions. That may be. And that's OK. Very few people figure everything out the very first try. And people can sometimes change over time. But equally, sometimes they don't. In any case, we can't expect people to understand themselves if we take away the tools to learn. In some sense, aren't these transient obsessions a vehicle for experimentation and learning? For mine, they are. You, have2throwaway, are valid. Here's to your journey.
      - have2throwaway 5y ago
        > Is one outcome preferable over another? Preferable to who, and why? For me personally, I believe the outcome in which these feelings went away without me acting on them (by which I especially mean hormones and surgery) is much better for me than one in which they stuck around and I did act on them. And I'm sure I'm not the only person for which this true. On the other hand, I totally accept there are other people for whom the feelings are unlikely to ever go away, and for those people, if they believe that acting on them is the best option for them, it isn't my place to disagree with them. The problem is how do we tell the two groups apart? How do we help people having these feelings work out which group they belong to? I don't have any confidence that the current system is good at doing that. Part of the reason why, is that those who transition have their stories celebrated by much (of course, not all) of the culture, while those who remit without transitioning (or who detransition) are mostly hidden in the shadows. That ends up presenting the former stories as more valid than the later, something which I see as problematic.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

> Say what one will, but it's effective. Yes and no. Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right. It's more effective at convincing people that you're completely unreasonable, and that it's better to just not talk to you at all.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
"Yes, it's effective at shutting people up. No, it's not very effective at convincing people that you're right." I see things differently, through the lens of power and influence. How much power does the opposition have if it's been effectively silenced? Members of the other side certainly aren't convinced of your cause, but what difference does it make? You've already gotten them to submit. As time goes on the younger people will pretty much only hear from the intolerant folks because the people who were silenced can't propagate their worldview effectively.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Fair point - if it continues for long. I'm hoping that the pendulum swings back before we get to that point... but maybe I'm just a crazy optimist.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

908B64B197 5y ago

> Either you say that Covid was a natural occurrence or you are a conspiracy theorist (and probably a racist too). Interesting how media coverage completely changed. Under the previous administration it was considered racist to even mention the theory and it's proponents were considered racists or conspiracy theorists. Why such a sudden change? China certainly didn't change its position on the issue...

Udik 5y ago
> Why such a sudden change? Trump is gone. Since he was the main proponent of the idea, and he was despised by half of the nation, they had to despise the idea too, even if it was quite fitting in the context of the anti-China rhetoric of the last few years. Now Trump is gone and the other half of the US is free to pick up his ideas.
layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
You're onto something... Keep lurking!