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There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one presents in both dress and phenotype. In my experience this is the center of every “debate.” It’s less about the merits of the cause and more about convincing this point against the hypothetical risk of a male who’s taken advantage of self identified gender. TERFs are generally not interested in dynamics of trans men, who seem to be more like “gender traitors” than their deceptive counterparts. Personally I find this whole movement a farce. Every talking point not only misaligns with trans women, it causes more harm to cis women at scale. “Real women” give birth — except hundreds of thousands who cannot. “Real women” look like the contemporary feminine ideal, yet 1 in 10 women suffer from PCOS enduring testosterone levels higher than any trans woman has to contend with. And the cake topper of them all, “trans women fuel negative stereotypes of femininity,” while simultaneously not appearing feminine enough, often barred from HRT until after puberty. This Goldilocks zone of womanhood is always out of reach, and therefore transness is never acceptable. - a trans woman

benjohnson 5y ago
I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss what seems to be a reasonable discussion as simply “TERF talking points” and then reframe what your opponents are saying in an un-sympathetic way.
- loopz 5y ago
  Maybe it's like telling ME patients it's all in their head, and they can be cured psychologically. It may work on some, but for many they get permanently damaged from too much pressure and stress. After such abuse and being ground down, it's hard to be sympathetic to ignorance and abuse. I don't know enough to conclude, but trying to understand and ask more questions is a first step.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.
- ENIanDEM 5y ago
  Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.
  - long_time_gone 5y ago
    This is what I don't understand. How many examples are there of the horrible ills these bathroom bills will "solve"? Trans people exist today, they use bathrooms, where are the problems?
    - worik 5y ago
      Use the bathroom you are comfortable using. Gendered bathrooms are a concrete expression of the fact that it is gender that is the major fault line through our society. The fact we need them is a damming indictment on our society (on men probably)
    - delecti 5y ago
      Virtually none. In fact trans people are vastly more likely to be victims of the sorts of things that the people pushing those policies argue those bills are meant to prevent.
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    That's a strawman. Without proof to the contrary the assumption should be that the trans population has a similar proportion of rapists as any other does. Since its been well established that essentially all rape no matter who is raping who goes under reported it is completely rational for women to be just as fearful as they would with any other stranger.
tabtab 5y ago
CIS (as born) women may also have (traditional) male-like traits. If you separate people by traits in prison, then why separate based on trans-ness alone? For example, large women are more likely to rape small women in prison simply because they can. If you separate based on such risks, then separate large women from small women also; why focus on just trans? Many prisons already separate by ethnic group simply to keep the peace. Yes, it's segregation, but the alternative is more prison riots. Thus, if separation happens for practical reasons, then don't limit the separation practices to one group; otherwise, you will be accused of discrimination, perhaps justifiably. Use statistics, not stereotypes, to find the split points. Or get better security so mixing doesn't result in problems. Lowest-bidder security has down-sides.
- lovegoblin 5y ago
  > "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".
  - teh_infallible 5y ago
    The world you’re looking for is “real”
    - lovegoblin 5y ago
      I assure you it is not.
    - freemint 5y ago
      What you just said will understood as extremely hurtful and a purposeful attack on trans people by (some) trans people or trans advocates. Did you do that on purpose?
      - pumaontheprowl 5y ago
        It's the truth. Trans women are not real women as they do not have the same DNA and cannot birth children (amongst many other differences). I may be offended when people talk negatively about my under-performing sports team, but that doesn't give me a right to delete their comments just because I perceive them to be hurtful.
MyHypatia 5y ago
I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither feel threatened with rape, nor impose that threat on cis-women. I think referring to this fear as a "TERF talking point" is as disrespectful as it would be to minimize the fear that trans-women experience in men's prisons.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    No, you don't have to place them in solitary confinement. You can place them with other trans-women. Men are housed with men in jails. Yes, sometimes they commit violence against each other, including rape. But we don't put all men in solitary confinement.
    - Latty 5y ago
      This begs the question of why it is acceptable for men and trans women to be raped, but unacceptable for cis women to be raped? There is no justification for accepting any prison rape—or, for that matter, sexual assault, which cis women are entirely capable of. (And, to be clear, sexual assault is not inherently a lesser crime than rape, rape is just a specific form of sexual assault, and depending on jurisdiction, may be defined in such a way as a cis woman can be a rapist).
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        It is not acceptable for men nor trans-women nor cis-women nor anyone to be raped in prison. My comment does not condone rape. If you think that all men and all trans-women should have separate cells to prevent this possibility, I think that could be a positive step forward. I do not think that subjecting cis-women to the fear of rape is a positive step forward.
Latty 5y ago
Indeed, well said. Even outside of the realm of gender, the rhetoric of biological essentialism is harmful. When I see people say things like "biology is what is real", I think about the harm done to every adopted child who is being told that their parent isn't really their parent, that their relationship should not be respected as much as someone who is biologically related to their parents.
metalliqaz 5y ago
Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. You cannot simply ignore that there are differences between X and Y chromosomes. Society's distinctions between the sexes is not arbitrary. Why do we have separate bathrooms in public but not at home? Why do we have segregated sports? Why do we celebrate feminists but not MRAs? It's because there is a real-world difference.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Chromosomes are not detectable from the outside. Phenotype is not entirely dependent on genotype. Trans women may suffer from both certain "female" diseases and certain "male" diseases.
- dang 5y ago
  Flamewar tropes like "Sorry to break it to you" are not acceptable on HN in any case and certainly not on a painfully divisive and inflammatory topic like this. If you can't keep in mind that you're talking to other human beings who may have deep and good reasons to feel differently than you do on a topic, then please don't post here. This is a difficult enough topic without poisoning it with swipes and snark. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jbay808 5y ago
  > Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. ... Except when they aren't. Even biology doesn't paint such a simple picture. Chromosomes are important, but not as important as hormones -- and how the body responds to those hormones. If you're not aware of CAIS, it is probably the clearest way for you to re-evaluate your view that chromosomes are prescriptive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitiv... Edit - puzzled by the downvotes here. Do you know what chromosomes you have? Have you checked? If you do, there's a nonzero chance that they aren't the chromosomes you're expecting to find. If you were to test your chromosomes and found they didn't match your expectations, you would either have to change your belief about the prescriptiveness of chromosomes, or your belief about your gender. Which belief would you change? Which belief do you hold more strongly?
merhart 5y ago
Just want to say thank you for taking the time to express your perspective on this, particularly as a heavily affected individual in these matters.
teakettle42 5y ago
> They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one presents in both dress and phenotype. If you were responsible for compiling a dictionary, what is the accurate definition of "woman" that you would provide?
- throwaway284534 5y ago
  I must admit that I’m apprehensive to give an answer given this thread’s…liveliness, but I’ll do my best. “Woman” describes a collection of chromosomal and phenological traits observed within an ongoing and temporal culture lens. A human is often perceived as a woman when she simultaneously embodies a variety of these traits, especially so when those traits contrast that which is considered male. Much like the concept of feminism, consensus on what is and isn’t in these categories continues to evolve as it’s observed and informed by the experienced of both genders. I can understand why a definition like this wouldn’t be as satisfying as something more concrete and well, definitive.
  - teatree 5y ago
    Apologies if this question is too stupid, I mean no disrespect, just trying to understand things better. If gender is a complete social construct and 'man' and 'woman' are something that is traits observed within an ongoing and temporal culture lens, then why not create another of your own? Most problems that I see in this debate are due to one group wanting to widen the scope of a existing understanding, the other wanting to preserve it. Wouldn't creating a 3rd gender and legislating it as a valid legal entity with compelled equal facilities solve the problem for both groups?
    - throwaway284534 5y ago
      It’s a fair question. I can’t speak for all trans women, but the impression I get is that many trans people would prefer to think of their transition as a medical issue to be managed back into the gender binary. You’ll probably get varying answers depending on just how far someone is in their transition. This doesn’t come up often but I think cis folks aren’t aware that many trans folk “graduate” out of the community once they feel sufficiently transitioned. After a few years of hormones and surgery, many would just prefer to go on with their life — skipping the debates and games of political football. Personally speaking, the concept of a third space wouldn’t be so bad, but making gendered spaces less necessary to begin with seems like a more realistic target. Historically, women were chained to their homes because of a lack of public restrooms. Why we didn’t opt for single-stalls and shared facilities is probably more to do with existing building codes and social norms, rather than a natural order of things. This reply is getting a little too long, but I’d like to pass on the much wiser words of Kate Bornstein: Then there's gender attribution, whereby we look at somehody and say, "that's a man," or "that's a woman." And this is important because the way we perceive another's gender affects the way we relate to that person. Gender attribution is the sneaky one. It's the one we do all the time without thinking about it; kinda like driving a sixteen-wheeler down a crowded highway...without thinking about it. In this culture, gender attribution, like gender assignment, is phallo centric. That is, one is male until perceived otherwise. According to a study done by Kessler and McKenna, one can extrapolate that it would take the presence of roughly four female cues to outweigh the presence ofone male cue: one is assumed male until proven otherwise. That's one reason why many women today get "sirred" whereas very few men get called "ma'am."
slibhb 5y ago
I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfectly to the world of appearences. But this does not mean we can jettison concepts and ideas altogether. In fact they seem necessary. So the fact that we cannot seem to come up with a perfect criterion for defining "biological woman" does not mean that we can dispense with that category. And that's what's being asked of us. We are told "trans women are women". What does that mean? It if means "there is a category, women, and in that category there are trans women and biological women," that's fine with me. If it means "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women," that seems wrong to me and to the vast majority of people.
- worik 5y ago
  I am with you until "...the vast majority of people". I am not sure it is true, and utterly sure it does not matter
  - analognoise 5y ago
    I don't think "trans women are women" is a literal statement - I think it means "we should give trans women the rights and protections afforded to women"; it's an expression of support. Kinda like "Black Lives Matter" - obviously they do, but the fact that you have to say it out loud and directly highlights the disparity and systemic injustices faced by people of color. At least, that's what I think those things mean, someone with a more sophisticated understanding will probably correct me if I'm wrong.
- danShumway 5y ago
  > "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women," There is no category of women that is entirely identical, where you couldn't distinguish between them. Some AFAB women can't give birth. Some of them have more androgynous bodies. Some of them are black. Some of them have different levels of estrogen, or grow up in different social circles that impose different expectations about how they should act, or provide different opportunities. Nobody is saying that AFAB women don't have different experiences than trans women, any more than anyone is saying that Black women don't have different experiences than white women. Womanhood has always been a broad category, and there has never been a point where you could accurately say that there are no distinctions between the subcategories within womanhood. If TERFs believe there is a fundamental quality that makes them indistinguishable from every other woman, then they are being absurd. Even if you ignore trans women, that world doesn't exist.
danShumway 5y ago
> to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points Even to the extent that there is a debate to be had about trans identity and how gender/sex works, it's really hard to have that debate when one side is terrified that their rights are being taken away. For trans people, this debate has immediate consequences. It's kind of frustrating to me that people don't see this. People are mad about not being able to have academic debates about trans identity as if it's unreasonable for the trans community to be prioritizing their own rights instead of the intellectual curiosity of university professors. 2020-2021 has seen one of the largest jumps in anti-trans legislation since... I don't even know when, since before I was born. So yeah, everyone who cares about this issue is on edge about TERFs, because TERFs don't want to have a friendly academic debate, they want to pass legislation blocking affirmative care, policing bathrooms and sports, and generally erasing trans people from society. I'm annoyed when I see people online acting like the trans community is the reason that these topics are politically fraught. They're politically fraught because TERFs and anti-trans politicians are using them as a front to take people's rights away. If that problem got fixed, if trans people weren't under attack, if a lot of the questioning wasn't tied up in bigotry, then conversations online about gender wouldn't be so tense. It's wild to try and blame the trans community for prioritizing self-preservation.
rfrey 5y ago
But I also know a trans woman who is over 6 feet tall and has a beard. She is considering hormone replacement therapy but has not committed yet. I cannot help but have some empathy for women -- who might have very good reason to be fearful of men -- who are uncomfortable having this person in female-safe spaces. That is 100% independent of the intentions or actual danger posed by this trans woman I know, which is as close to zero as I can imagine.
RhodoGSA 5y ago
Being trans is a personal philosophy. You may argue that the 'feeling' is innate, but must make major changes to your outside appearance/ biology / defy culture norms. With that being said, defying cultural norms is a good thing but you can't force me to accept your reality. I have to option to have a difference in opinion than you. If i accidentally say sir, instead of mrs you can't cancel me because of it. I don't claim to be a moral precept but what i do offer you A peace treaty. You can live your life in a way that is pleasing to you but you cannot force other people to accept your beliefs no matter how much scientific or cultural backing it may have. if the local womens book club doesn't want a dude who 'Claims' to be a women in their book club but can obviously still see he's a man, that's okay. It's not discrimination, it's difference in opinion and that is okay. edit: Deleted a paragraph discussing sports. I think it mainly took away from my argument rather than helped it.

benjohnson 5y ago

I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss what seems to be a reasonable discussion as simply “TERF talking points” and then reframe what your opponents are saying in an un-sympathetic way.

loopz 5y ago
Maybe it's like telling ME patients it's all in their head, and they can be cured psychologically. It may work on some, but for many they get permanently damaged from too much pressure and stress. After such abuse and being ground down, it's hard to be sympathetic to ignorance and abuse. I don't know enough to conclude, but trying to understand and ask more questions is a first step.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.

ENIanDEM 5y ago
Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  This is what I don't understand. How many examples are there of the horrible ills these bathroom bills will "solve"? Trans people exist today, they use bathrooms, where are the problems?
  - worik 5y ago
    Use the bathroom you are comfortable using. Gendered bathrooms are a concrete expression of the fact that it is gender that is the major fault line through our society. The fact we need them is a damming indictment on our society (on men probably)
  - delecti 5y ago
    Virtually none. In fact trans people are vastly more likely to be victims of the sorts of things that the people pushing those policies argue those bills are meant to prevent.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  That's a strawman. Without proof to the contrary the assumption should be that the trans population has a similar proportion of rapists as any other does. Since its been well established that essentially all rape no matter who is raping who goes under reported it is completely rational for women to be just as fearful as they would with any other stranger.

tabtab 5y ago

CIS (as born) women may also have (traditional) male-like traits. If you separate people by traits in prison, then why separate based on trans-ness alone? For example, large women are more likely to rape small women in prison simply because they can. If you separate based on such risks, then separate large women from small women also; why focus on just trans? Many prisons already separate by ethnic group simply to keep the peace. Yes, it's segregation, but the alternative is more prison riots. Thus, if separation happens for practical reasons, then don't limit the separation practices to one group; otherwise, you will be accused of discrimination, perhaps justifiably. Use statistics, not stereotypes, to find the split points. Or get better security so mixing doesn't result in problems. Lowest-bidder security has down-sides.

lovegoblin 5y ago
> "Regular" women The word you're looking for is "cis".
- teh_infallible 5y ago
  The world you’re looking for is “real”
  - lovegoblin 5y ago
    I assure you it is not.
  - freemint 5y ago
    What you just said will understood as extremely hurtful and a purposeful attack on trans people by (some) trans people or trans advocates. Did you do that on purpose?
    - pumaontheprowl 5y ago
      It's the truth. Trans women are not real women as they do not have the same DNA and cannot birth children (amongst many other differences). I may be offended when people talk negatively about my under-performing sports team, but that doesn't give me a right to delete their comments just because I perceive them to be hurtful.

MyHypatia 5y ago

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither feel threatened with rape, nor impose that threat on cis-women. I think referring to this fear as a "TERF talking point" is as disrespectful as it would be to minimize the fear that trans-women experience in men's prisons.

throwawayboise 5y ago
You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  No, you don't have to place them in solitary confinement. You can place them with other trans-women. Men are housed with men in jails. Yes, sometimes they commit violence against each other, including rape. But we don't put all men in solitary confinement.
  - Latty 5y ago
    This begs the question of why it is acceptable for men and trans women to be raped, but unacceptable for cis women to be raped? There is no justification for accepting any prison rape—or, for that matter, sexual assault, which cis women are entirely capable of. (And, to be clear, sexual assault is not inherently a lesser crime than rape, rape is just a specific form of sexual assault, and depending on jurisdiction, may be defined in such a way as a cis woman can be a rapist).
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      It is not acceptable for men nor trans-women nor cis-women nor anyone to be raped in prison. My comment does not condone rape. If you think that all men and all trans-women should have separate cells to prevent this possibility, I think that could be a positive step forward. I do not think that subjecting cis-women to the fear of rape is a positive step forward.

Latty 5y ago

Indeed, well said. Even outside of the realm of gender, the rhetoric of biological essentialism is harmful. When I see people say things like "biology is what is real", I think about the harm done to every adopted child who is being told that their parent isn't really their parent, that their relationship should not be respected as much as someone who is biologically related to their parents.

metalliqaz 5y ago

Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. You cannot simply ignore that there are differences between X and Y chromosomes. Society's distinctions between the sexes is not arbitrary. Why do we have separate bathrooms in public but not at home? Why do we have segregated sports? Why do we celebrate feminists but not MRAs? It's because there is a real-world difference.

tsimionescu 5y ago
Chromosomes are not detectable from the outside. Phenotype is not entirely dependent on genotype. Trans women may suffer from both certain "female" diseases and certain "male" diseases.
dang 5y ago
Flamewar tropes like "Sorry to break it to you" are not acceptable on HN in any case and certainly not on a painfully divisive and inflammatory topic like this. If you can't keep in mind that you're talking to other human beings who may have deep and good reasons to feel differently than you do on a topic, then please don't post here. This is a difficult enough topic without poisoning it with swipes and snark. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jbay808 5y ago
> Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. ... Except when they aren't. Even biology doesn't paint such a simple picture. Chromosomes are important, but not as important as hormones -- and how the body responds to those hormones. If you're not aware of CAIS, it is probably the clearest way for you to re-evaluate your view that chromosomes are prescriptive. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitiv... Edit - puzzled by the downvotes here. Do you know what chromosomes you have? Have you checked? If you do, there's a nonzero chance that they aren't the chromosomes you're expecting to find. If you were to test your chromosomes and found they didn't match your expectations, you would either have to change your belief about the prescriptiveness of chromosomes, or your belief about your gender. Which belief would you change? Which belief do you hold more strongly?

merhart 5y ago

Just want to say thank you for taking the time to express your perspective on this, particularly as a heavily affected individual in these matters.

teakettle42 5y ago

> They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one presents in both dress and phenotype. If you were responsible for compiling a dictionary, what is the accurate definition of "woman" that you would provide?

throwaway284534 5y ago
I must admit that I’m apprehensive to give an answer given this thread’s…liveliness, but I’ll do my best. “Woman” describes a collection of chromosomal and phenological traits observed within an ongoing and temporal culture lens. A human is often perceived as a woman when she simultaneously embodies a variety of these traits, especially so when those traits contrast that which is considered male. Much like the concept of feminism, consensus on what is and isn’t in these categories continues to evolve as it’s observed and informed by the experienced of both genders. I can understand why a definition like this wouldn’t be as satisfying as something more concrete and well, definitive.
- teatree 5y ago
  Apologies if this question is too stupid, I mean no disrespect, just trying to understand things better. If gender is a complete social construct and 'man' and 'woman' are something that is traits observed within an ongoing and temporal culture lens, then why not create another of your own? Most problems that I see in this debate are due to one group wanting to widen the scope of a existing understanding, the other wanting to preserve it. Wouldn't creating a 3rd gender and legislating it as a valid legal entity with compelled equal facilities solve the problem for both groups?
  - throwaway284534 5y ago
    It’s a fair question. I can’t speak for all trans women, but the impression I get is that many trans people would prefer to think of their transition as a medical issue to be managed back into the gender binary. You’ll probably get varying answers depending on just how far someone is in their transition. This doesn’t come up often but I think cis folks aren’t aware that many trans folk “graduate” out of the community once they feel sufficiently transitioned. After a few years of hormones and surgery, many would just prefer to go on with their life — skipping the debates and games of political football. Personally speaking, the concept of a third space wouldn’t be so bad, but making gendered spaces less necessary to begin with seems like a more realistic target. Historically, women were chained to their homes because of a lack of public restrooms. Why we didn’t opt for single-stalls and shared facilities is probably more to do with existing building codes and social norms, rather than a natural order of things. This reply is getting a little too long, but I’d like to pass on the much wiser words of Kate Bornstein: Then there's gender attribution, whereby we look at somehody and say, "that's a man," or "that's a woman." And this is important because the way we perceive another's gender affects the way we relate to that person. Gender attribution is the sneaky one. It's the one we do all the time without thinking about it; kinda like driving a sixteen-wheeler down a crowded highway...without thinking about it. In this culture, gender attribution, like gender assignment, is phallo centric. That is, one is male until perceived otherwise. According to a study done by Kessler and McKenna, one can extrapolate that it would take the presence of roughly four female cues to outweigh the presence ofone male cue: one is assumed male until proven otherwise. That's one reason why many women today get "sirred" whereas very few men get called "ma'am."

slibhb 5y ago

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfectly to the world of appearences. But this does not mean we can jettison concepts and ideas altogether. In fact they seem necessary. So the fact that we cannot seem to come up with a perfect criterion for defining "biological woman" does not mean that we can dispense with that category. And that's what's being asked of us. We are told "trans women are women". What does that mean? It if means "there is a category, women, and in that category there are trans women and biological women," that's fine with me. If it means "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women," that seems wrong to me and to the vast majority of people.

worik 5y ago
I am with you until "...the vast majority of people". I am not sure it is true, and utterly sure it does not matter
- analognoise 5y ago
  I don't think "trans women are women" is a literal statement - I think it means "we should give trans women the rights and protections afforded to women"; it's an expression of support. Kinda like "Black Lives Matter" - obviously they do, but the fact that you have to say it out loud and directly highlights the disparity and systemic injustices faced by people of color. At least, that's what I think those things mean, someone with a more sophisticated understanding will probably correct me if I'm wrong.
danShumway 5y ago
> "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women," There is no category of women that is entirely identical, where you couldn't distinguish between them. Some AFAB women can't give birth. Some of them have more androgynous bodies. Some of them are black. Some of them have different levels of estrogen, or grow up in different social circles that impose different expectations about how they should act, or provide different opportunities. Nobody is saying that AFAB women don't have different experiences than trans women, any more than anyone is saying that Black women don't have different experiences than white women. Womanhood has always been a broad category, and there has never been a point where you could accurately say that there are no distinctions between the subcategories within womanhood. If TERFs believe there is a fundamental quality that makes them indistinguishable from every other woman, then they are being absurd. Even if you ignore trans women, that world doesn't exist.

danShumway 5y ago

> to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points Even to the extent that there is a debate to be had about trans identity and how gender/sex works, it's really hard to have that debate when one side is terrified that their rights are being taken away. For trans people, this debate has immediate consequences. It's kind of frustrating to me that people don't see this. People are mad about not being able to have academic debates about trans identity as if it's unreasonable for the trans community to be prioritizing their own rights instead of the intellectual curiosity of university professors. 2020-2021 has seen one of the largest jumps in anti-trans legislation since... I don't even know when, since before I was born. So yeah, everyone who cares about this issue is on edge about TERFs, because TERFs don't want to have a friendly academic debate, they want to pass legislation blocking affirmative care, policing bathrooms and sports, and generally erasing trans people from society. I'm annoyed when I see people online acting like the trans community is the reason that these topics are politically fraught. They're politically fraught because TERFs and anti-trans politicians are using them as a front to take people's rights away. If that problem got fixed, if trans people weren't under attack, if a lot of the questioning wasn't tied up in bigotry, then conversations online about gender wouldn't be so tense. It's wild to try and blame the trans community for prioritizing self-preservation.

rfrey 5y ago

But I also know a trans woman who is over 6 feet tall and has a beard. She is considering hormone replacement therapy but has not committed yet. I cannot help but have some empathy for women -- who might have very good reason to be fearful of men -- who are uncomfortable having this person in female-safe spaces. That is 100% independent of the intentions or actual danger posed by this trans woman I know, which is as close to zero as I can imagine.

RhodoGSA 5y ago

Being trans is a personal philosophy. You may argue that the 'feeling' is innate, but must make major changes to your outside appearance/ biology / defy culture norms. With that being said, defying cultural norms is a good thing but you can't force me to accept your reality. I have to option to have a difference in opinion than you. If i accidentally say sir, instead of mrs you can't cancel me because of it. I don't claim to be a moral precept but what i do offer you A peace treaty. You can live your life in a way that is pleasing to you but you cannot force other people to accept your beliefs no matter how much scientific or cultural backing it may have. if the local womens book club doesn't want a dude who 'Claims' to be a women in their book club but can obviously still see he's a man, that's okay. It's not discrimination, it's difference in opinion and that is okay. edit: Deleted a paragraph discussing sports. I think it mainly took away from my argument rather than helped it.