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The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact

The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact, to get the benefits of secondary sex characteristics for trans women they often have to have LOWER testosterone and higher estrogen levels for cis women in their weight and age. This is done to overcome the masculinization they've gone through. Basically, to get the boobs you gotta carpet bomb the testes forever or snip snip.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
I think using instantaneous testosterone is probably not the right call. Probably a metric like aggregate exposure to testosterone/other androgens over the course of one's life. It would need to be one signal among many -- for example, cis-men should not compete in women's sport regardless of whether they have very low testosterone. But it seems like a signal like this may be needed at some point. Of course it is possible that we collectively decide that it's ok that cis women have no chance of winning the Olympic weightlifting gold ever again. That seems like a bad outcome to me, but I am only a single voice. If the relevant stakeholders are ok with that it won't be a great tragedy to me that my opinion is ignored. But, for example, my wife had a very negative reaction when I posed that scenario to her. It seems to me like as the implication of current policy becomes more clear, more folks are going to want to change the policy.
- ladyattis 5y ago
  Even aggregate exposure isn't going to be a good metric. You don't keep the muscle mass for long. In fact, one of the big issues that trans women deal with is osteoporosis. I've personally known some trans women who've had to actively had to use supplements to prevent fractures and the like. No amount of exercise will be enough to build up density. The reality is that trans folks are probably on the bottom rung in the majority of cases in physical performance. Those that endure this and even get sports rarely rise above the average.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    > You don't keep the muscle mass for long. That is not what the research I have seen shows. And the incident being discussed in the story we are commenting on seems to put the lie to this notion.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  So as an average (non-athletic) male, my testosterone is likely lower than that of Phelps. If we were the same height and weight, would my entry into the competition disqualify him for having too much testosterone?
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    No, because there would be only two categories of competition: female+low-lifetime-androgen-exposure, and everyone else.
rocqua 5y ago
The idea was not to look at testosterone markers. The idea was that "testosterone is effective doping" might be a decent heuristic for FTM athletes have an advantage from their biology. Whilst there are indeed cases of trans athletes with lower testosterone, that doesn't cover all cases. And it is the remaining cases that matter. Don't underestimate the damage this is doing. I visit 9gag quite often. The population there is not trans positive (and generally intollerant). Memes against trans people have become a lot more prevalent there. It is galvanizing a lot of simmering sentiment against trans people. And the scary thing is, on this specific issue of MTF athletes, their argument doesn't immediately fall apart. That is not the kind of foothold we should want for them.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

I think using instantaneous testosterone is probably not the right call. Probably a metric like aggregate exposure to testosterone/other androgens over the course of one's life. It would need to be one signal among many -- for example, cis-men should not compete in women's sport regardless of whether they have very low testosterone. But it seems like a signal like this may be needed at some point. Of course it is possible that we collectively decide that it's ok that cis women have no chance of winning the Olympic weightlifting gold ever again. That seems like a bad outcome to me, but I am only a single voice. If the relevant stakeholders are ok with that it won't be a great tragedy to me that my opinion is ignored. But, for example, my wife had a very negative reaction when I posed that scenario to her. It seems to me like as the implication of current policy becomes more clear, more folks are going to want to change the policy.

ladyattis 5y ago
Even aggregate exposure isn't going to be a good metric. You don't keep the muscle mass for long. In fact, one of the big issues that trans women deal with is osteoporosis. I've personally known some trans women who've had to actively had to use supplements to prevent fractures and the like. No amount of exercise will be enough to build up density. The reality is that trans folks are probably on the bottom rung in the majority of cases in physical performance. Those that endure this and even get sports rarely rise above the average.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  > You don't keep the muscle mass for long. That is not what the research I have seen shows. And the incident being discussed in the story we are commenting on seems to put the lie to this notion.
IgorPartola 5y ago
So as an average (non-athletic) male, my testosterone is likely lower than that of Phelps. If we were the same height and weight, would my entry into the competition disqualify him for having too much testosterone?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  No, because there would be only two categories of competition: female+low-lifetime-androgen-exposure, and everyone else.

rocqua 5y ago

The idea was not to look at testosterone markers. The idea was that "testosterone is effective doping" might be a decent heuristic for FTM athletes have an advantage from their biology. Whilst there are indeed cases of trans athletes with lower testosterone, that doesn't cover all cases. And it is the remaining cases that matter. Don't underestimate the damage this is doing. I visit 9gag quite often. The population there is not trans positive (and generally intollerant). Memes against trans people have become a lot more prevalent there. It is galvanizing a lot of simmering sentiment against trans people. And the scary thing is, on this specific issue of MTF athletes, their argument doesn't immediately fall apart. That is not the kind of foothold we should want for them.