5 ms·

Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state

by dwater 5y ago

Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/partisan-composition.aspx# https://www.ncsl.org/research/about-state-legislatures/parti... Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning critical race theory shows (critical race theory being a graduate level discipline that is not taught in public secondary schools). https://www.chalkbeat.org/22525983/map-critical-race-theory-legislation-teaching-racism https://www.chalkbeat.org/22525983/map-critical-race-theory-... And bills like the voucher program you describe have been shown to have mixed results at best. If you live at the poverty line that West Virginia bill does not provide you any additional choice in your child's education, unless there are numerous private schools in West Virginia that charge $4600 or less in tuition, which I would not expect. Otherwise it's simply a transfer of funds away from public schools to middle and upper class families who were already leaning away from public education and the private (largely religious) institutions they prefer. If the intent was truly to provide school choice to all, they could end enrollment based on residence and allow low income families to choose to place their children in high performing schools in high income areas, but that kind of choice is not the intent of these programs.

kingsuper20 5y ago
> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: Looking at the uproar about Critical Race Theory, it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue. In addition, the Department of Education and other federal agencies are a thing.
- handrous 5y ago
  > it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue This is definitely not the case. Consider: unless consistently-"red" legislatures and governor's offices are putting "blue" people in charge of their educational departments, it couldn't be the case. Further, in many states, individual districts play a major role in deciding the course of education, so even if that were the case, "red" school districts would have to be electing "blue" school boards, and I can 100% confirm that, as one might expect, they do not do this, generally. [EDIT] further—and I'm heading into speculative territory here, I admit—I'd guess that people holding school administration PhDs—so, qualified for superintendent-type roles—identify, on average, as farther right than the average of PhD holders, and probably than most individual PhD areas of study except maybe business-related ones. There are lots of very conservative school administrators out there.
  - kansface 5y ago
    I don’t buy this argument for a couple of reasons. The first is that you have to look at the percentage of candidates for the job from each tribe. Just like really blue cities are inevitably at odds with their really red tribe police officers who inevitably live in the suburbs. Similarly, public universities in red states have no choice but to hire really liberal professors because like 95% of professors vote Democrat and the remainder vote libertarian or green, etc. You could try convincing the professors to go be police officers and vice versa, but neither is actually interested in the other job. Secondly, these sorts of policies often come from the bottom up, from students or teachers. Administrations often roll over out of self preservation or apathy.
    - handrous 5y ago
      Ah, higher ed. Yes, that may have a different dynamic. My comment was from the POV of primary and secondary education. For instance, it's definitely not the case that this: > Secondly, these sorts of policies often come from the bottom up, from students or teachers. Administrations often roll over out of self preservation or apathy. Is happening in any widespread or common way in k-12 school districts, with admin hired by "red" school boards elected by "red" voters capitulating to most any "blue" political inclinations of teachers. As for the students in those age ranges, for most of that span they have a strong tendency to very closely follow the political views of their parents, so that's mostly irrelevant as far as pressure goes.
whb07 5y ago
Well a couple things to note: 1. An entrepreneurial teacher/teachers could provide a service for these suddenly flush parents at $4600 per child. 2. Most politicians, from either side are either corrupt or incompetent, so these labels don’t matter much to me. But if you actually look at the people running most say schools/admins and even large chunks of the government bureaucracy it’s people who believe in large government and like that lifestyle. This is true even in deep red areas. Finally, the argument “more money”/resources needed to improve the bad quality is something that has been going on for 50+ years and it’s gotten worse over time. At what point do you say, “geez guess more money isn’t the answer!” I think Thomas Sowell said once something along the lines that the black schools in DC at about late 1800s-early 1900s was OUTPERFORMING those of the white schools in the region. If one is to look at the present day schooling in the same region, those children/teens are functionally illiterate. So what needs to be done, is to give a voucher to every parent to decide where to go. Right now the system sends MORE money to a school if it’s failing, and or they allow the failing school to survive.
- iammisc 5y ago
  > I think Thomas Sowell said once something along the lines that the black schools in DC at about late 1800s-early 1900s was OUTPERFORMING those of the white schools in the region. If one is to look at the present day schooling in the same region, those children/teens are functionally illiterate. There's a lot of quiet stereotyping going on where people assume that blacks have always underperformed whites in schooling, economic growth, etc. In reality, this is a recent phenomenon. Well into the 50s/early 60s, black incomes were growing much faster than whites.
  - whb07 5y ago
    Yup! They assume today’s bad situation and apply it backwards, when in fact as time progresses, things have gotten worse not better.
- techrat 5y ago
  > So what needs to be done, is to give a voucher to every parent to decide where to go. So, we just say 'fuck all the kids who were born in the wrong zip code' and can't overcome the distance gate to go to a better school with the voucher?
iammisc 5y ago
> unless there are numerous private schools in West Virginia that charge $4600 or less in tuition, which I would not expect. There seem to be quite a few: https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/west-virginia https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/west-virgi... In general, Catholic school is per capita cheaper than public. In fact, according to https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-private-school https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-private-school, $4600 would be enough to cover the average Catholic elementary school in the US as a whole. > Otherwise it's simply a transfer of funds away from public schools to middle and upper class families who were already leaning away from public education and the private (largely religious) institutions they prefer. That's not true. Vouchers are more popular with minorities: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/02/24/voters-strongly-support-school-choice-educators-should-listen-column/4831964002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/02/24/voters-str... I also notice you use religious as a pejorative. There is little reason to do so. Catholic schooling for example provides better outcomes for low-income minorities than public schools, including when adjusted for poverty, parental behavior, etc. Thomas Sowell goes in depth in his book "education in america". > If the intent was truly to provide school choice to all, they could end enrollment based on residence and allow low income families to choose to place their children in high performing schools in high income areas, but that kind of choice is not the intent of these programs. Low income families do not want to place their kids in high performing schools in high income areas. That doesn't actually work. This typically leads to ostracization of the poor kids in school and the creation of two separate tracks. My wife and I are in the best high school in our city ... if you're white or rich. If you're black it's the worst. It's in an extremely rich area, but it also includes a predominantly black poorer inner city neighborhood.
- teachrdan 5y ago
  > I also notice you use religious as a pejorative. There is little reason to do so. While I tend to agree that Catholic schools are good at teaching science (except for reproductive science!), evangelical schools often teach against evolution, climate change, etc. A popular Christian textbook refers to the theory of evolution as “a wicked and vain philosophy.” And many of these schools accept vouchers! That means taxpayer funds set aside for education are actively being used, by religious schools, to make students dumber, in an explicit attempt at religious and political indoctrination. https://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/education-creationism-104934 https://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/education-creationism...
asdfg-2021 5y ago
>Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning critical race theory shows (critical race theory being a graduate level discipline that is not taught in public secondary schools). Your statement about critical race theory is misinformed; the legislation you refer to may be misguided, but the effects of this ideology have spread well beyond the university. For a good primer, I'd recommend this article by Columbia linguist John McWhorter: https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/you-are-not-a-racist-to-criticize https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/you-are-not-a-racist-to... (edited for link to written version of article vs. podcast)
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines Fine, but the claim was about the teachers' union. In a red state, who does the teachers' union campaign for? I'd bet that there are few examples of the teachers' union campaigning for Republicans, even in a red state.
ta2162 5y ago
>Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines This isn't reality, schools are ran by school administrators and education leadership heavily skew leftist.

by dwater 5y ago

kingsuper20 5y ago

> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines: Looking at the uproar about Critical Race Theory, it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue. In addition, the Department of Education and other federal agencies are a thing.

handrous 5y ago
> it appears that even the deepest red states have school hierarchies run by the blue This is definitely not the case. Consider: unless consistently-"red" legislatures and governor's offices are putting "blue" people in charge of their educational departments, it couldn't be the case. Further, in many states, individual districts play a major role in deciding the course of education, so even if that were the case, "red" school districts would have to be electing "blue" school boards, and I can 100% confirm that, as one might expect, they do not do this, generally. [EDIT] further—and I'm heading into speculative territory here, I admit—I'd guess that people holding school administration PhDs—so, qualified for superintendent-type roles—identify, on average, as farther right than the average of PhD holders, and probably than most individual PhD areas of study except maybe business-related ones. There are lots of very conservative school administrators out there.
- kansface 5y ago
  I don’t buy this argument for a couple of reasons. The first is that you have to look at the percentage of candidates for the job from each tribe. Just like really blue cities are inevitably at odds with their really red tribe police officers who inevitably live in the suburbs. Similarly, public universities in red states have no choice but to hire really liberal professors because like 95% of professors vote Democrat and the remainder vote libertarian or green, etc. You could try convincing the professors to go be police officers and vice versa, but neither is actually interested in the other job. Secondly, these sorts of policies often come from the bottom up, from students or teachers. Administrations often roll over out of self preservation or apathy.
  - handrous 5y ago
    Ah, higher ed. Yes, that may have a different dynamic. My comment was from the POV of primary and secondary education. For instance, it's definitely not the case that this: > Secondly, these sorts of policies often come from the bottom up, from students or teachers. Administrations often roll over out of self preservation or apathy. Is happening in any widespread or common way in k-12 school districts, with admin hired by "red" school boards elected by "red" voters capitulating to most any "blue" political inclinations of teachers. As for the students in those age ranges, for most of that span they have a strong tendency to very closely follow the political views of their parents, so that's mostly irrelevant as far as pressure goes.

whb07 5y ago

Well a couple things to note: 1. An entrepreneurial teacher/teachers could provide a service for these suddenly flush parents at $4600 per child. 2. Most politicians, from either side are either corrupt or incompetent, so these labels don’t matter much to me. But if you actually look at the people running most say schools/admins and even large chunks of the government bureaucracy it’s people who believe in large government and like that lifestyle. This is true even in deep red areas. Finally, the argument “more money”/resources needed to improve the bad quality is something that has been going on for 50+ years and it’s gotten worse over time. At what point do you say, “geez guess more money isn’t the answer!” I think Thomas Sowell said once something along the lines that the black schools in DC at about late 1800s-early 1900s was OUTPERFORMING those of the white schools in the region. If one is to look at the present day schooling in the same region, those children/teens are functionally illiterate. So what needs to be done, is to give a voucher to every parent to decide where to go. Right now the system sends MORE money to a school if it’s failing, and or they allow the failing school to survive.

iammisc 5y ago
> I think Thomas Sowell said once something along the lines that the black schools in DC at about late 1800s-early 1900s was OUTPERFORMING those of the white schools in the region. If one is to look at the present day schooling in the same region, those children/teens are functionally illiterate. There's a lot of quiet stereotyping going on where people assume that blacks have always underperformed whites in schooling, economic growth, etc. In reality, this is a recent phenomenon. Well into the 50s/early 60s, black incomes were growing much faster than whites.
- whb07 5y ago
  Yup! They assume today’s bad situation and apply it backwards, when in fact as time progresses, things have gotten worse not better.
techrat 5y ago
> So what needs to be done, is to give a voucher to every parent to decide where to go. So, we just say 'fuck all the kids who were born in the wrong zip code' and can't overcome the distance gate to go to a better school with the voucher?

iammisc 5y ago

> unless there are numerous private schools in West Virginia that charge $4600 or less in tuition, which I would not expect. There seem to be quite a few: https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/west-virginia https://www.privateschoolreview.com/tuition-stats/west-virgi... In general, Catholic school is per capita cheaper than public. In fact, according to https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-private-school https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-private-school, $4600 would be enough to cover the average Catholic elementary school in the US as a whole. > Otherwise it's simply a transfer of funds away from public schools to middle and upper class families who were already leaning away from public education and the private (largely religious) institutions they prefer. That's not true. Vouchers are more popular with minorities: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/02/24/voters-strongly-support-school-choice-educators-should-listen-column/4831964002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/02/24/voters-str... I also notice you use religious as a pejorative. There is little reason to do so. Catholic schooling for example provides better outcomes for low-income minorities than public schools, including when adjusted for poverty, parental behavior, etc. Thomas Sowell goes in depth in his book "education in america". > If the intent was truly to provide school choice to all, they could end enrollment based on residence and allow low income families to choose to place their children in high performing schools in high income areas, but that kind of choice is not the intent of these programs. Low income families do not want to place their kids in high performing schools in high income areas. That doesn't actually work. This typically leads to ostracization of the poor kids in school and the creation of two separate tracks. My wife and I are in the best high school in our city ... if you're white or rich. If you're black it's the worst. It's in an extremely rich area, but it also includes a predominantly black poorer inner city neighborhood.

teachrdan 5y ago
> I also notice you use religious as a pejorative. There is little reason to do so. While I tend to agree that Catholic schools are good at teaching science (except for reproductive science!), evangelical schools often teach against evolution, climate change, etc. A popular Christian textbook refers to the theory of evolution as “a wicked and vain philosophy.” And many of these schools accept vouchers! That means taxpayer funds set aside for education are actively being used, by religious schools, to make students dumber, in an explicit attempt at religious and political indoctrination. https://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/education-creationism-104934 https://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/education-creationism...

asdfg-2021 5y ago

>Republican legislatures have shown they are quite capable of passing legislation about education that serves little purpose beyond a political agenda, as this year's crop of bills banning critical race theory shows (critical race theory being a graduate level discipline that is not taught in public secondary schools). Your statement about critical race theory is misinformed; the legislation you refer to may be misguided, but the effects of this ideology have spread well beyond the university. For a good primer, I'd recommend this article by Columbia linguist John McWhorter: https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/you-are-not-a-racist-to-criticize https://johnmcwhorter.substack.com/p/you-are-not-a-racist-to... (edited for link to written version of article vs. podcast)

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

> Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines Fine, but the claim was about the teachers' union. In a red state, who does the teachers' union campaign for? I'd bet that there are few examples of the teachers' union campaigning for Republicans, even in a red state.

ta2162 5y ago

>Schools are controlled primarily by state and local governments, which are not universally controlled by Democrats but split along typical red state/blue state lines This isn't reality, schools are ran by school administrators and education leadership heavily skew leftist.