6 ms·

Those are all standard benefits for tech workers in America (at least if you're willing to move to a tech hub, which is where the interesting work is anyway). P

Those are all standard benefits for tech workers in America (at least if you're willing to move to a tech hub, which is where the interesting work is anyway). Plus 50-200% more pay. I do agree that Europe does a good job of guaranteeing decent working conditions for the bottom half of the labor market, and it's totally reasonable to prefer a society where those benefits are widely available to everyone. But from an individual comp/benefits perspective for a skilled engineer there really isn't a comparison -- the US wins hands down.

pjmlp 5y ago
A big if, and then waste those 50-200% into getting what is standard here, possibly alongside a double mortage and better never get any serious sickness, no thanks.
- kcorbitt 5y ago
  No, the extra 50-200% is in addition to the employer-provided healthcare benefits and retirement match. If you get seriously sick, you're much more likely to get effective and timely treatment with the gold-plated health insurance plans provided by US tech employers than the options I'm familiar with in Europe.* I'll 100% grant that the US healthcare system is really messed up, and if you're not in a highly-compensated field you're probably better off in most European systems. I'm socially liberal and would much rather the US system were more equitable, even if that means my own personal experience gets a bit worse. But that doesn't change the fact that if you're an in-demand engineer your personal interactions with the US system will be great. * To be fair, I've only lived in London and Barcelona, so there may be other parts of Europe with better healthcare systems. But at least compared to those two cities, I've had much better experiences with my employer-provided health coverage in the US than in the public UK or private Spanish healthcare systems I've used.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    Why didn't you choose to have private healthcare in the UK? It costs peanuts and I'm surprised big tech companies don't offer it as standard
    - kcorbitt 5y ago
      I was working on a startup at the time wasn't making any money. And to be fair, if you have no money the NHS is pretty awesome!
      - iso1631 5y ago
        Do startups in the US provide healthcare plans?
        kcorbitt 5y ago
        A funded startup will generally provide health insurance of some kind, although at the very earliest stages it's probably not great. As startups get larger and less cash-poor overall comp (including health insurance) increases significantly. In my specific case though I was bootstrapping my own startup, which had no funding, revenue, or employees. (I survived by living off my wife's PhD stipend at the time.)
        iso1631 5y ago
        So in the UK you had health insurance and chose not to pay the extra £800 a year to get gold plated private stuff In the US you wouldn't have had any health insurance at all? Have you compared health insurance at a FAANG in the US with NHS + Bupa in the UK?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Europeans have a very distorted sense of American healthcare. Your media, like ours, is not accurate or reliable. The American healthcare system doesn’t work well for the lower classes, but it generally works very well for the professional class and up. Of course this isn’t to say it shouldn’t be reformed to be more like the European healthcare system, but it’s not because the European system is better for professionals. Additionally, the extra 50-200% (not sure about that upper bound figure) is after accounting for “what is standard for Europeans” i.e., healthcare and pension. I looked into this precisely because I was interested in moving to Europe for a while and found it would be very difficult for me to afford for my wife and I to both live in Europe and travel Europe on my salary alone (and the odds of her finding work in Europe seemed slim).
  - mynameishere 5y ago
    fyi, the lower classes in the US pay nothing for health care, typically.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I think that's only true for the very poorest Americans and I don't think they enjoy the same quality of healthcare that the professional class enjoys. In general, Medicare seems to be really complicated and it varies tremendously by state, so it's hard to generalize about the kind of healthcare poorer people receive.
      - refurb 5y ago
        It’s not Medicare it’s Medicaid and the qualification can be up to 400% of the poverty line and the coverage tends to be quite good with minimal ($5) out of pocket costs. In some areas it can be harder to find a family doctor because Medicaid pays them so little for a visit, but drug coverage, for example is comparable to private plans (with way less out of pocket). And now with Obamacare exchanges, low incomes folks can qualify for substantial premium subsidies. Deductibles and out of pocket limits can still be significant, but one could consider it catastrophic coverage.
Karunamon 5y ago
OT is absolutely not a standard benefit for tech workers in the USA; it is considered a "professional" field and is exempt from the requirement.
- bluGill 5y ago
  > it is considered a "professional" field and is exempt from the requirement. Legally that is true. However practically only a very few tech companies don't exceed that standard. (the exceptions are mostly startups, which if things work out will make the people taking the risk worth far more in the long run - I don't think the risks are worth it but enough people have made millions on those deals to call it completely stupid)
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    Aren't most tech jobs salaried anyways?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Agreed. If you're in a startup, you can think of your stock as overtime pay, and it looks a lot better than what you would make earning 40% less with OT pay.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      If it doesn't go under and one finds themselves like in great depression.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        I’m pretty sure US startups still pay more in salary than the average or median European software developer salary, so in the worst case the American startup employee finds themselves in a comparable economic situation to the European software professional (except that the American can always go to a FAANG or fintech and make double). Hardly a “great depression” scenario.
- 5y ago

pjmlp 5y ago

A big if, and then waste those 50-200% into getting what is standard here, possibly alongside a double mortage and better never get any serious sickness, no thanks.

kcorbitt 5y ago
No, the extra 50-200% is in addition to the employer-provided healthcare benefits and retirement match. If you get seriously sick, you're much more likely to get effective and timely treatment with the gold-plated health insurance plans provided by US tech employers than the options I'm familiar with in Europe.* I'll 100% grant that the US healthcare system is really messed up, and if you're not in a highly-compensated field you're probably better off in most European systems. I'm socially liberal and would much rather the US system were more equitable, even if that means my own personal experience gets a bit worse. But that doesn't change the fact that if you're an in-demand engineer your personal interactions with the US system will be great. * To be fair, I've only lived in London and Barcelona, so there may be other parts of Europe with better healthcare systems. But at least compared to those two cities, I've had much better experiences with my employer-provided health coverage in the US than in the public UK or private Spanish healthcare systems I've used.
- iso1631 5y ago
  Why didn't you choose to have private healthcare in the UK? It costs peanuts and I'm surprised big tech companies don't offer it as standard
  - kcorbitt 5y ago
    I was working on a startup at the time wasn't making any money. And to be fair, if you have no money the NHS is pretty awesome!
    - iso1631 5y ago
      Do startups in the US provide healthcare plans?
      - kcorbitt 5y ago
        A funded startup will generally provide health insurance of some kind, although at the very earliest stages it's probably not great. As startups get larger and less cash-poor overall comp (including health insurance) increases significantly. In my specific case though I was bootstrapping my own startup, which had no funding, revenue, or employees. (I survived by living off my wife's PhD stipend at the time.)
        iso1631 5y ago
        So in the UK you had health insurance and chose not to pay the extra £800 a year to get gold plated private stuff In the US you wouldn't have had any health insurance at all? Have you compared health insurance at a FAANG in the US with NHS + Bupa in the UK?
throwaway894345 5y ago
Europeans have a very distorted sense of American healthcare. Your media, like ours, is not accurate or reliable. The American healthcare system doesn’t work well for the lower classes, but it generally works very well for the professional class and up. Of course this isn’t to say it shouldn’t be reformed to be more like the European healthcare system, but it’s not because the European system is better for professionals. Additionally, the extra 50-200% (not sure about that upper bound figure) is after accounting for “what is standard for Europeans” i.e., healthcare and pension. I looked into this precisely because I was interested in moving to Europe for a while and found it would be very difficult for me to afford for my wife and I to both live in Europe and travel Europe on my salary alone (and the odds of her finding work in Europe seemed slim).
- mynameishere 5y ago
  fyi, the lower classes in the US pay nothing for health care, typically.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I think that's only true for the very poorest Americans and I don't think they enjoy the same quality of healthcare that the professional class enjoys. In general, Medicare seems to be really complicated and it varies tremendously by state, so it's hard to generalize about the kind of healthcare poorer people receive.
    - refurb 5y ago
      It’s not Medicare it’s Medicaid and the qualification can be up to 400% of the poverty line and the coverage tends to be quite good with minimal ($5) out of pocket costs. In some areas it can be harder to find a family doctor because Medicaid pays them so little for a visit, but drug coverage, for example is comparable to private plans (with way less out of pocket). And now with Obamacare exchanges, low incomes folks can qualify for substantial premium subsidies. Deductibles and out of pocket limits can still be significant, but one could consider it catastrophic coverage.

Karunamon 5y ago

OT is absolutely not a standard benefit for tech workers in the USA; it is considered a "professional" field and is exempt from the requirement.

bluGill 5y ago
> it is considered a "professional" field and is exempt from the requirement. Legally that is true. However practically only a very few tech companies don't exceed that standard. (the exceptions are mostly startups, which if things work out will make the people taking the risk worth far more in the long run - I don't think the risks are worth it but enough people have made millions on those deals to call it completely stupid)
- Karunamon 5y ago
  Aren't most tech jobs salaried anyways?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Agreed. If you're in a startup, you can think of your stock as overtime pay, and it looks a lot better than what you would make earning 40% less with OT pay.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    If it doesn't go under and one finds themselves like in great depression.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      I’m pretty sure US startups still pay more in salary than the average or median European software developer salary, so in the worst case the American startup employee finds themselves in a comparable economic situation to the European software professional (except that the American can always go to a FAANG or fintech and make double). Hardly a “great depression” scenario.
5y ago