4 ms·

>>Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? Yes, and if they didn't, a court, made up of a jury of their peers, would find the contract void, as cont

>>Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? Yes, and if they didn't, a court, made up of a jury of their peers, would find the contract void, as contracts require informed/genuine consent. >>If there's only one employer in town (or a range of employers offering the same conditions), then that freedom is moot. Even in the late 19th century, workers in company towns had market options: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in-defense-of-the-company-town.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in... And in any case, that situation is exceedingly rare, especially in the modern highly urbanized economy, where a large and growing percentage of the population lives in high population metropolises with thousands of employers. >>There needs to be equal forces pushing up and down on workers' rights. I disagree with this assessment, based on the empirical evidence, which shows wages consistently rise in lockstep with per capita GDP. What gives workers bargaining power is companies seeing their productivity and revenue rise, and as a consequence, bidding more for workers' services as they compete with other employers. That's the dynamic behind wages in China tripling over the last twenty years.

cloudfifty 5y ago
workers' rights isn't the same thing as wage. People in western-Europe are happier than folk in the US, with more worker's rights and less wages.
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  Western Europe countries (per CIA definitions) are Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, and United Kingdom. Belgium and France rank below the US [2], Monaco is not listed, the other 4 are close to the US, except the Netherlands. Also, Monaco (population 38,000) has the highest number of millionaires and billionaires per capita in the world. They're not the usual workers and union type of country. I suppose you mean the Nordic countries are happier as a group, which is true, but World Happiness Reports explicitly do not list your reasons as the cause of Nordic happiness [1], instead listing other factors. Do you have a source showing their happiness is caused by the factors you listed? I can find none. All list things like lack of corruption, belief in government, etc., as the reasons for their happiness. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptionalism-what-explains-why-the-nordic-countries-are-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/ https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptional... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...
  - cloudfifty 5y ago
    Is there any reason to believe that the famous welfare state, and thus broad workers rights, is not a large contributor to the fact that the same set of countries seem to be the happiest?
    - ChrisLomont 5y ago
      Yes ,I just pointed it out. The places that create the happiness indices, which is where the information comes from that give you the evidence these places are happiest, lists the reasons for this happiness, and the workers rights are not listed as the cause. You cannot on the one hand claim these are the happiest places and ignore the same source for the reasons. And, as I pointed out, a significant amount of countries beyond the few considered western European perform worse than the US, even though they have more workers rights. And the reason for the US being lower than many is the lack of faith in government, as stated in the reports by the people that measure happiness, not weaker workers rights than Finland. An interesting test would be to find a ranking of countries by workers rights, and use the ranking by happiness, and see if there is even strong correlation between these. Read the reports. I provided the links.
      - cloudfifty 5y ago
        If you think these things don't overlap you're ideologically blind. From the introduction in your first link: Through reviewing the existing studies, theories, and data behind the World Happiness Report, we find that the most prominent explanations include factors related to the quality of institutions, such as reliable and _extensive welfare benefits_, low corruption, and well-functioning democracy and state institutions. Under Welfare state generosity: In a longitudinal study of 18 industrial countries from 1971-2002, Pacek and Radcliff examine welfare state generosity by using an index capturing the extent of emancipation from market dependency in terms of pensions, income maintenance for the ill or disabled, and unemployment benefits, finding that welfare state generosity exerts a positive and significant impact on life satisfaction.[21]
        5y ago
blowski 5y ago
You're talking about the freedom of a wheelchair-bound person to climb any set of stairs they like, whereas I'm talking about the existence of ramps. > What gives workers bargaining power is companies seeing their productivity and revenue rise So where is the bargaining power of Amazon's workers right now? > wages consistently rise in lockstep with per capita GDP. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The mean wage has risen for all, but that is skewed by the much higher rises for the highest paid. At the bottom, real wages have fallen. [1] As a result, purchasing power for 90% of USA population has stayed the same since the late 1970s, while for the top 10% it has significantly increased. [2] [1] - https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ [2] - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us...
- ChrisLomont 5y ago
  >At the bottom, real wages have fallen. Wages are not the only form of remuneration. Total remuneration is the stat you should look at, since also since 1980 a lot of law changes have made it more costly to employ, and most jobs, even low wage ones, have received lots more benefits. Also, since 1980, wages at the low end have increased for women and minorities. Only white males at the low end have decreased. Finally, almost no one spends a career at the low end - entry wages to the workforce are just that - a start for a career. Look at lifetime earnings to see what the lowest lifetime earners make, and then you will see vast improvements in both wages and total remuneration. BLS tracks all of these variables. Wages, total remuneration, and total cost to employ are the relevant things to look through to get a better picture. Look through them sometime.
  - blowski 5y ago
    Agreed, real wages are not the whole picture, but any metric can be manipulated to show whatever we like. For me, the purchasing power of the median individual is one of the best 'simple' pieces of data to track over time, but that can can hide the difference between geographical areas, and how we calculate PPP is controversial. What to do? Look at a broad range of outcomes like social mobility - indicators that can't be moved directly and themselves have an impact on future change.

cloudfifty 5y ago

workers' rights isn't the same thing as wage. People in western-Europe are happier than folk in the US, with more worker's rights and less wages.

ChrisLomont 5y ago
Western Europe countries (per CIA definitions) are Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, and United Kingdom. Belgium and France rank below the US [2], Monaco is not listed, the other 4 are close to the US, except the Netherlands. Also, Monaco (population 38,000) has the highest number of millionaires and billionaires per capita in the world. They're not the usual workers and union type of country. I suppose you mean the Nordic countries are happier as a group, which is true, but World Happiness Reports explicitly do not list your reasons as the cause of Nordic happiness [1], instead listing other factors. Do you have a source showing their happiness is caused by the factors you listed? I can find none. All list things like lack of corruption, belief in government, etc., as the reasons for their happiness. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptionalism-what-explains-why-the-nordic-countries-are-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/ https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptional... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...
- cloudfifty 5y ago
  Is there any reason to believe that the famous welfare state, and thus broad workers rights, is not a large contributor to the fact that the same set of countries seem to be the happiest?
  - ChrisLomont 5y ago
    Yes ,I just pointed it out. The places that create the happiness indices, which is where the information comes from that give you the evidence these places are happiest, lists the reasons for this happiness, and the workers rights are not listed as the cause. You cannot on the one hand claim these are the happiest places and ignore the same source for the reasons. And, as I pointed out, a significant amount of countries beyond the few considered western European perform worse than the US, even though they have more workers rights. And the reason for the US being lower than many is the lack of faith in government, as stated in the reports by the people that measure happiness, not weaker workers rights than Finland. An interesting test would be to find a ranking of countries by workers rights, and use the ranking by happiness, and see if there is even strong correlation between these. Read the reports. I provided the links.
    - cloudfifty 5y ago
      If you think these things don't overlap you're ideologically blind. From the introduction in your first link: Through reviewing the existing studies, theories, and data behind the World Happiness Report, we find that the most prominent explanations include factors related to the quality of institutions, such as reliable and _extensive welfare benefits_, low corruption, and well-functioning democracy and state institutions. Under Welfare state generosity: In a longitudinal study of 18 industrial countries from 1971-2002, Pacek and Radcliff examine welfare state generosity by using an index capturing the extent of emancipation from market dependency in terms of pensions, income maintenance for the ill or disabled, and unemployment benefits, finding that welfare state generosity exerts a positive and significant impact on life satisfaction.[21]
      - 5y ago

blowski 5y ago

You're talking about the freedom of a wheelchair-bound person to climb any set of stairs they like, whereas I'm talking about the existence of ramps. > What gives workers bargaining power is companies seeing their productivity and revenue rise So where is the bargaining power of Amazon's workers right now? > wages consistently rise in lockstep with per capita GDP. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The mean wage has risen for all, but that is skewed by the much higher rises for the highest paid. At the bottom, real wages have fallen. [1] As a result, purchasing power for 90% of USA population has stayed the same since the late 1970s, while for the top 10% it has significantly increased. [2] [1] - https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ [2] - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us...

ChrisLomont 5y ago
>At the bottom, real wages have fallen. Wages are not the only form of remuneration. Total remuneration is the stat you should look at, since also since 1980 a lot of law changes have made it more costly to employ, and most jobs, even low wage ones, have received lots more benefits. Also, since 1980, wages at the low end have increased for women and minorities. Only white males at the low end have decreased. Finally, almost no one spends a career at the low end - entry wages to the workforce are just that - a start for a career. Look at lifetime earnings to see what the lowest lifetime earners make, and then you will see vast improvements in both wages and total remuneration. BLS tracks all of these variables. Wages, total remuneration, and total cost to employ are the relevant things to look through to get a better picture. Look through them sometime.
- blowski 5y ago
  Agreed, real wages are not the whole picture, but any metric can be manipulated to show whatever we like. For me, the purchasing power of the median individual is one of the best 'simple' pieces of data to track over time, but that can can hide the difference between geographical areas, and how we calculate PPP is controversial. What to do? Look at a broad range of outcomes like social mobility - indicators that can't be moved directly and themselves have an impact on future change.