5 ms·

These comments highlight the need for balance between the two extremes. We are currently at one extreme, and need to find a way back to the middle.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
I appreciate you keeping an open mind. But I would also nitpick, and make the argument that the middle-ground between two widely divergent positions is not always right. I would argue we should never undermine the freedom to contract, which labor unions urge us to do when they advocate laws preventing employers from choosing to not associate with them. Their premise, that corporate power can sometimes be abusive, can have some validity, without their solution, which is limitations on the right to freely contract, being correct.
- blowski 5y ago
  Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? If there's only one employer in town (or a range of employers offering the same conditions), then that freedom is moot. This is the balance we need. There needs to be equal forces pushing up and down on workers' rights. At the moment, for many industries, there is too much down and not enough up. Could you make collective bargaining work without restricting freedom to contract in some way?
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? Yes, and if they didn't, a court, made up of a jury of their peers, would find the contract void, as contracts require informed/genuine consent. >>If there's only one employer in town (or a range of employers offering the same conditions), then that freedom is moot. Even in the late 19th century, workers in company towns had market options: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in-defense-of-the-company-town.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in... And in any case, that situation is exceedingly rare, especially in the modern highly urbanized economy, where a large and growing percentage of the population lives in high population metropolises with thousands of employers. >>There needs to be equal forces pushing up and down on workers' rights. I disagree with this assessment, based on the empirical evidence, which shows wages consistently rise in lockstep with per capita GDP. What gives workers bargaining power is companies seeing their productivity and revenue rise, and as a consequence, bidding more for workers' services as they compete with other employers. That's the dynamic behind wages in China tripling over the last twenty years.
    - cloudfifty 5y ago
      workers' rights isn't the same thing as wage. People in western-Europe are happier than folk in the US, with more worker's rights and less wages.
      - ChrisLomont 5y ago
        Western Europe countries (per CIA definitions) are Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, and United Kingdom. Belgium and France rank below the US [2], Monaco is not listed, the other 4 are close to the US, except the Netherlands. Also, Monaco (population 38,000) has the highest number of millionaires and billionaires per capita in the world. They're not the usual workers and union type of country. I suppose you mean the Nordic countries are happier as a group, which is true, but World Happiness Reports explicitly do not list your reasons as the cause of Nordic happiness [1], instead listing other factors. Do you have a source showing their happiness is caused by the factors you listed? I can find none. All list things like lack of corruption, belief in government, etc., as the reasons for their happiness. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptionalism-what-explains-why-the-nordic-countries-are-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/ https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptional... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...
        cloudfifty 5y ago
        Is there any reason to believe that the famous welfare state, and thus broad workers rights, is not a large contributor to the fact that the same set of countries seem to be the happiest?
        ChrisLomont 5y ago
        Yes ,I just pointed it out. The places that create the happiness indices, which is where the information comes from that give you the evidence these places are happiest, lists the reasons for this happiness, and the workers rights are not listed as the cause. You cannot on the one hand claim these are the happiest places and ignore the same source for the reasons. And, as I pointed out, a significant amount of countries beyond the few considered western European perform worse than the US, even though they have more workers rights. And the reason for the US being lower than many is the lack of faith in government, as stated in the reports by the people that measure happiness, not weaker workers rights than Finland. An interesting test would be to find a ranking of countries by workers rights, and use the ranking by happiness, and see if there is even strong correlation between these. Read the reports. I provided the links.

CryptoPunk 5y ago

I appreciate you keeping an open mind. But I would also nitpick, and make the argument that the middle-ground between two widely divergent positions is not always right. I would argue we should never undermine the freedom to contract, which labor unions urge us to do when they advocate laws preventing employers from choosing to not associate with them. Their premise, that corporate power can sometimes be abusive, can have some validity, without their solution, which is limitations on the right to freely contract, being correct.

blowski 5y ago
Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? If there's only one employer in town (or a range of employers offering the same conditions), then that freedom is moot. This is the balance we need. There needs to be equal forces pushing up and down on workers' rights. At the moment, for many industries, there is too much down and not enough up. Could you make collective bargaining work without restricting freedom to contract in some way?
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>Do these people genuinely have freedom to contract? Yes, and if they didn't, a court, made up of a jury of their peers, would find the contract void, as contracts require informed/genuine consent. >>If there's only one employer in town (or a range of employers offering the same conditions), then that freedom is moot. Even in the late 19th century, workers in company towns had market options: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in-defense-of-the-company-town.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/01/in... And in any case, that situation is exceedingly rare, especially in the modern highly urbanized economy, where a large and growing percentage of the population lives in high population metropolises with thousands of employers. >>There needs to be equal forces pushing up and down on workers' rights. I disagree with this assessment, based on the empirical evidence, which shows wages consistently rise in lockstep with per capita GDP. What gives workers bargaining power is companies seeing their productivity and revenue rise, and as a consequence, bidding more for workers' services as they compete with other employers. That's the dynamic behind wages in China tripling over the last twenty years.
  - cloudfifty 5y ago
    workers' rights isn't the same thing as wage. People in western-Europe are happier than folk in the US, with more worker's rights and less wages.
    - ChrisLomont 5y ago
      Western Europe countries (per CIA definitions) are Belgium, France, Ireland, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, and United Kingdom. Belgium and France rank below the US [2], Monaco is not listed, the other 4 are close to the US, except the Netherlands. Also, Monaco (population 38,000) has the highest number of millionaires and billionaires per capita in the world. They're not the usual workers and union type of country. I suppose you mean the Nordic countries are happier as a group, which is true, but World Happiness Reports explicitly do not list your reasons as the cause of Nordic happiness [1], instead listing other factors. Do you have a source showing their happiness is caused by the factors you listed? I can find none. All list things like lack of corruption, belief in government, etc., as the reasons for their happiness. [1] https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptionalism-what-explains-why-the-nordic-countries-are-constantly-among-the-happiest-in-the-world/ https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2020/the-nordic-exceptional... [2] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-...
      - cloudfifty 5y ago
        Is there any reason to believe that the famous welfare state, and thus broad workers rights, is not a large contributor to the fact that the same set of countries seem to be the happiest?
        ChrisLomont 5y ago
        Yes ,I just pointed it out. The places that create the happiness indices, which is where the information comes from that give you the evidence these places are happiest, lists the reasons for this happiness, and the workers rights are not listed as the cause. You cannot on the one hand claim these are the happiest places and ignore the same source for the reasons. And, as I pointed out, a significant amount of countries beyond the few considered western European perform worse than the US, even though they have more workers rights. And the reason for the US being lower than many is the lack of faith in government, as stated in the reports by the people that measure happiness, not weaker workers rights than Finland. An interesting test would be to find a ranking of countries by workers rights, and use the ranking by happiness, and see if there is even strong correlation between these. Read the reports. I provided the links.