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Hmmmm. At that point are you not simply beginning to divide by ability? Basketball for short people? Weightlifting for weak people? It would seem to both go aga

Hmmmm. At that point are you not simply beginning to divide by ability? Basketball for short people? Weightlifting for weak people? It would seem to both go against the spirit of sport and be impossible to implement in practice (for e.g how many different ways do you cut it?) Perhaps the more fundamental question — once again leaning on apparently somewhat flimsy terminology — would be: is biological sex something worthy of celebration and note? Half of our species is born a certain way, whatever we call it. Is that grouping to be given certain opportunities to demonstrate their talents that would not be afforded them on a level playing field?

crowf 5y ago
Many sports have many categories. Boxers and wrestlers are separated based on weight
- nimbleal 5y ago
  Yes, but as mentioned elsewhere weight alone would do little to solve this issue. Males would still dominate. So presumably you include other factors — but then you are simply dividing by ability. You could conceivably attempt to divide by innate ability (theoretically allowing competitors to compete against one another based on nurture, not nature) but that would be impossible to do fairly or in a way that would make sense to audiences.
  - trhway 5y ago
    >impossible to do fairly we're at HN - run PCA and clustering on the totality of athletes' results and biological data for the last N decades with end result being the groups based on identified parameters similar to boxing/wrestling weight groups. >that would make sense to audiences. we're already in situation which is harder and harder to make sense. Putting it on the firm basis of scientific analysis is the only way to move forward which would avoid all the pitfalls we're going to hit otherwise.
    - jefftk 5y ago
      What happens if you run PCA and it groups trans women in with men?
      - trhway 5y ago
        trans women by their nature already defy the classic notions of sex and gender (i.e. that classic match of software and hardware), so why does it matter whether they would get grouped with the men (i suppose you meant the classic notion of "men"), trans men, women or with any cross boundaries cutting group as long as the competition is honest (i.e. similar blood oxygen carrying capabilities with similar muscle mass with similar bone density or whatever PCA would point to)? Also, if trans women are supposed to go to women competition, does it mean that trans men are supposed to go to men competition? Wouldn't that mean pretty much condemning them to having no chance of winning from the start in the most sports where sheer mass, power, etc. play major role? Anyway, if we don't put it on the firm scientific basis today, i can see how tomorrow a number of male athletes form China and Russia would suddenly start to feel like they are women, may be would take some hormones to satisfy some doubts/requirements (giving the doping already going on i don't see any obstacles here), and that will be the end of female sports.
  - a-and 5y ago
    > but then you are simply dividing by ability While I understand the sentiment, but I think we need to speak of skill vs physical factors. The division of weightlifters in weight classes is to deal with the latter rather than the former. Similarly - WADA does this already by banning doping. PEDs don't make you a high-skill athlete, they enhance physical capabilities (stronger, faster recovery etc). Laurel Hubbard is in an unfortunately unique position, where she's at a natural advantage due to higher testosterone levels earlier in life. It might be impossible to end up with a fair division, but I don't think "no division" is a good answer.
- GhostVII 5y ago
  Boxers and wrestlers are also separated based on sex, because even at the same weight males will dominate.
belorn 5y ago
A while back I wondered how much of elite sport is determined by genetics. The answer I got back was unsurprising that genetics play a very heavy role in many sports 90%+. We have basically already dived the population based on those traits when it comes to some world championships. Is it fun to watch a bunch of length skiers that all have a similar rare medical conditions that enables an endurance and oxygen uptake that is way beyond what is possible for the wast majority of the population? Dividing by genetics seems as a good option, but would that then go against the spirit of the sport? Sex is simply just a bunch of common genetic traits, but they are not the only traits that matters in sport. There are a long list of them, especially in extreme strength or endurance sports.

crowf 5y ago

Many sports have many categories. Boxers and wrestlers are separated based on weight

nimbleal 5y ago
Yes, but as mentioned elsewhere weight alone would do little to solve this issue. Males would still dominate. So presumably you include other factors — but then you are simply dividing by ability. You could conceivably attempt to divide by innate ability (theoretically allowing competitors to compete against one another based on nurture, not nature) but that would be impossible to do fairly or in a way that would make sense to audiences.
- trhway 5y ago
  >impossible to do fairly we're at HN - run PCA and clustering on the totality of athletes' results and biological data for the last N decades with end result being the groups based on identified parameters similar to boxing/wrestling weight groups. >that would make sense to audiences. we're already in situation which is harder and harder to make sense. Putting it on the firm basis of scientific analysis is the only way to move forward which would avoid all the pitfalls we're going to hit otherwise.
  - jefftk 5y ago
    What happens if you run PCA and it groups trans women in with men?
    - trhway 5y ago
      trans women by their nature already defy the classic notions of sex and gender (i.e. that classic match of software and hardware), so why does it matter whether they would get grouped with the men (i suppose you meant the classic notion of "men"), trans men, women or with any cross boundaries cutting group as long as the competition is honest (i.e. similar blood oxygen carrying capabilities with similar muscle mass with similar bone density or whatever PCA would point to)? Also, if trans women are supposed to go to women competition, does it mean that trans men are supposed to go to men competition? Wouldn't that mean pretty much condemning them to having no chance of winning from the start in the most sports where sheer mass, power, etc. play major role? Anyway, if we don't put it on the firm scientific basis today, i can see how tomorrow a number of male athletes form China and Russia would suddenly start to feel like they are women, may be would take some hormones to satisfy some doubts/requirements (giving the doping already going on i don't see any obstacles here), and that will be the end of female sports.
- a-and 5y ago
  > but then you are simply dividing by ability While I understand the sentiment, but I think we need to speak of skill vs physical factors. The division of weightlifters in weight classes is to deal with the latter rather than the former. Similarly - WADA does this already by banning doping. PEDs don't make you a high-skill athlete, they enhance physical capabilities (stronger, faster recovery etc). Laurel Hubbard is in an unfortunately unique position, where she's at a natural advantage due to higher testosterone levels earlier in life. It might be impossible to end up with a fair division, but I don't think "no division" is a good answer.
GhostVII 5y ago
Boxers and wrestlers are also separated based on sex, because even at the same weight males will dominate.

belorn 5y ago

A while back I wondered how much of elite sport is determined by genetics. The answer I got back was unsurprising that genetics play a very heavy role in many sports 90%+. We have basically already dived the population based on those traits when it comes to some world championships. Is it fun to watch a bunch of length skiers that all have a similar rare medical conditions that enables an endurance and oxygen uptake that is way beyond what is possible for the wast majority of the population? Dividing by genetics seems as a good option, but would that then go against the spirit of the sport? Sex is simply just a bunch of common genetic traits, but they are not the only traits that matters in sport. There are a long list of them, especially in extreme strength or endurance sports.