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I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at

by vore 5y ago

I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large and if that is not your intent then I retract my initial comment. That said, I don't really agree with this clarification either: no trans woman is setting out to have gender reassignment to bully their way into competing against women who were lifting since they were teenagers. I think you are attributing this to malice that is simply not there, and it is only an artifact of unfortunate circumstance. Trans women certainly don't want to be in this situation either: I'm sure they would much rather be born biologically female and compete that way!

chitowneats 5y ago
I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at. If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.
junon 5y ago
> pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case. So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they even claim it themselves (transmedicalism vs. gender identity, etc). Very little of it these days is based on science or medical prognosis.
- taurath 5y ago
  OTOH very little of how our society bases its treatment of trans people based on science or medical prognosis. The best evidence there is is that dysphoria is real and gender affirming therapies including medical transition is an effective treatment. Yet access to that treatment varies extremely widely, being treated inherently as a second or third class citizen both by culture and in a lot of cases by law. I do understand as well your reticence around the ideological space that a lot of online spaces take place in. To that I’d just say that this stuff is fairly new, and you have a lot of young people finding and differentiating their identities as they’re going through quite a process. My opinion is frankly it’s a wonderful thing, to have it so people can prioritize their emotional well being enough to not have their natural individual differentiations beat out of them as so many cultures have done. In doing so, discovering how much of a thing gender dysphoria is for some, and allowing them to lead much much better lives.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    Per your last point, the response can swing the other way and also cause harm in some cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
    - taurath 5y ago
      Yes, and detransitioners happen and should be (and are as far as I've experienced) supported. But their argument a bit like if I said that all elective surgery should be illegal because I regret mine. For every story like this you can find a thousand who are waiting years to get any amount of treatment. The UK is well known for having some of the most stringent policies and heavy usage of gatekeeping before anyone gets treatment - FAR more than in the US.
blindmute 5y ago
The trans person's intent doesn't matter. What matters is that they are inserting themselves into female competition at an immense advantage. The fact of the matter is that if you allow biological men into female competition, females will never win anything. That is literally why there are sex separated sports. Females cannot compete with males at the highest level of sport, this is just a fact. I don't think we should be destroying the sports dreams of half the population to appease the trans people. It sucks for them, but quite frankly I don't care, because there is no better solution than to exclude them.
- strange_loops 5y ago
  In how many areas of life do we "just exclude them" when speaking of minorities to create an ideal ecosystem? This is a slippery slope.
  - blindmute 5y ago
    As many as are necessary for the coherence of society. They are welcome to enter into the open (mens) division of a sport. They are not welcome to enter the women's division, because they are not women. We already had this debate a few decades ago and decided women need their own sports divisions. I'm sorry that these people want very badly to play in the women's league, but they are not women, and so they should not be allowed in that league, for all the reasons that engendered the women's league in the first place.

by vore 5y ago

chitowneats 5y ago

I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at. If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.

junon 5y ago

> pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case. So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they even claim it themselves (transmedicalism vs. gender identity, etc). Very little of it these days is based on science or medical prognosis.

taurath 5y ago
OTOH very little of how our society bases its treatment of trans people based on science or medical prognosis. The best evidence there is is that dysphoria is real and gender affirming therapies including medical transition is an effective treatment. Yet access to that treatment varies extremely widely, being treated inherently as a second or third class citizen both by culture and in a lot of cases by law. I do understand as well your reticence around the ideological space that a lot of online spaces take place in. To that I’d just say that this stuff is fairly new, and you have a lot of young people finding and differentiating their identities as they’re going through quite a process. My opinion is frankly it’s a wonderful thing, to have it so people can prioritize their emotional well being enough to not have their natural individual differentiations beat out of them as so many cultures have done. In doing so, discovering how much of a thing gender dysphoria is for some, and allowing them to lead much much better lives.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Per your last point, the response can swing the other way and also cause harm in some cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
  - taurath 5y ago
    Yes, and detransitioners happen and should be (and are as far as I've experienced) supported. But their argument a bit like if I said that all elective surgery should be illegal because I regret mine. For every story like this you can find a thousand who are waiting years to get any amount of treatment. The UK is well known for having some of the most stringent policies and heavy usage of gatekeeping before anyone gets treatment - FAR more than in the US.

blindmute 5y ago

The trans person's intent doesn't matter. What matters is that they are inserting themselves into female competition at an immense advantage. The fact of the matter is that if you allow biological men into female competition, females will never win anything. That is literally why there are sex separated sports. Females cannot compete with males at the highest level of sport, this is just a fact. I don't think we should be destroying the sports dreams of half the population to appease the trans people. It sucks for them, but quite frankly I don't care, because there is no better solution than to exclude them.

strange_loops 5y ago
In how many areas of life do we "just exclude them" when speaking of minorities to create an ideal ecosystem? This is a slippery slope.
- blindmute 5y ago
  As many as are necessary for the coherence of society. They are welcome to enter into the open (mens) division of a sport. They are not welcome to enter the women's division, because they are not women. We already had this debate a few decades ago and decided women need their own sports divisions. I'm sorry that these people want very badly to play in the women's league, but they are not women, and so they should not be allowed in that league, for all the reasons that engendered the women's league in the first place.