7 ms·

I mean, in what world aren't "PWAs, web apps and other web technologies" inferior to real apps? I have complex real-time 3D video games that do things like flui

by caslon 5y ago

I mean, in what world aren't "PWAs, web apps and other web technologies" inferior to real apps? I have complex real-time 3D video games that do things like fluid simulation and have dynamic maps that take fewer system resources than any Electron or QtWebkit/QtWebEngine app I've got. I can use CSS for GTK and actually-native Qt, and they don't wreck my system as hard. I see no benefits to PWAs; it sure seems like Apple's doing everyone a favor by making them less common, and I say this as a Linux user who kinda likes having more professionally-crafted apps. I'm pretty much the target audience for them, given that if they don't exist, people are still going to make apps for Mac and Windows. And yet, I would sacrifice every single one of them without a second thought. They don't add enough benefit to be worth it.

echelon 5y ago
> in what world aren't PWAs, web apps & other web technologies inferior to real apps? Apple controls the iPhone ecosystem. That's how they're worse. It's the single most dictatorial move our industry has seen, and it's damaged our industry to the point we have to go through a single company to reach consumers. The minute native Rust/WASM with custom painted UI and the ability to call device APIs lands, it's game over for app stores. Or it would be, if Apple would allow this stuff to exist on their platform. (They won't.)
- caslon 5y ago
  No, it's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that PWAs are bad. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web technologies are ridiculously bloated with no intention of actually fixing the problem. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web apps are inferior to every other type of application you can find. You can't blame every single problem on "the iPhone ecosystem." I certainly don't like the iPhone or its software; this doesn't mean that it's somehow responsible for PulseAudio being bad. Not everything can be tied to the iPhone. Really!
  - tasogare 5y ago
    I think in fine the PWA problem stems from a lack of education: some developers were exposed only to Javascript and think of it at the alpha and omega of programming. Ironically the web isn't even a platform for developing software to begin with. And because they can't be bothered to even try any other programming toolkit, they want everything else to come in the browser (GPU, SQL, USB, etc), duplicating existing OS functions in a weird half-assed, incomplete, buggy and security-wise questionable way. I don't know what the fix for that is, but probably taking what pure web developers say less seriously would be a good start (in this thread for example, the reference to NPM, a package manager known for the vulnerabilities it enable, is laughable).
    - caslon 5y ago
      Just want to point out for appreciation: Using in fine in an English sentence is fantastic and not done enough.
forgotpwd16 5y ago
Many mobile apps just exist to browse a certain web site (HN, Reddit, etc) at which point making a native app makes little sense if you're just copying the design of a site. This also extends to desktop (Spotify, Steam, etc). The problem with Electron (or CEF or QtWeb*) is that it's running an independent rendering engine adding a significant overhead. If you're already running a browser even complex web apps such as a WebGL sculpter[0] add a minimum usage on the session. Of course there's the problem of persistently running a web browser which may lead to high energy consumption. [0]: https://stephaneginier.com/sculptgl/ https://stephaneginier.com/sculptgl/
- caslon 5y ago
  Link to a post in this thread that I wrote partially as a response to yours but don't want to duplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27601802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27601802 On a whim, I also opened the front page of reddit (again, in my web browser that's already opened) and the tab is taking 140MB fresh.
  - forgotpwd16 5y ago
    Is this page resource usage on the browser or the total? Else, you used the browser's (about:performance in Firefox) or you system's task manager to get this figure? If the later, that is exactly what I meant with engine overhead. You should consider that initial figure shared among tabs/apps.
    - caslon 5y ago
      I used about:performance; I'm not stupid. Is there no expectation of good faith here?
      - forgotpwd16 5y ago
        Strange. It shows only 1.7MB on FF 89.0 (Linux, x64). That's why I thought you're checking the total memory. Then again the total in there is far smaller than what the system usage is, so this manager is unreliable.
adflux 5y ago
>I see no benefits to PWAs For games, sure, native is much better. But for any other app, which doesn't require a lot of rendering and simulation, PWAs are actually a great option. You can have one codebase for both platforms. Through the use of Cordova you can actually use native apis very easily. Also, using PWAS gives you access to the thousands of useful packages in the npm ecosystem. How about the tens of thousands of themes you can use to enhance your app? Or things like Vuetify or TailwindUI to quickly craft attractive UIs If you're not making an app which needs a lot of computational power I would say a PWA is a great option.
- caslon 5y ago
  That is kind of the exact opposite of the point I was making. Games would be fine as PWAs in theory: nobody expects video games to use few resources or to be power-efficient. Anything else isn't a good fit, because PWAs are ridiculously bloated for fundamental reasons even for basic applications.
  - adflux 5y ago
    What do you mean by "ridiculously bloated"?
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      The very nature of HTML and CSS which are designed to display some text and maybe a few images make them ridiculously unsuited for literally anything else. You as much as glance at a web page, and it causes a repaint and reflow of the page. Everything else stems from that.
      - BackBlast 5y ago
        HTML+CSS is a layout system that has been refined and heavily used in many screen sizes for several decades now. Try to find an equivalent system that works from 4/8k down to 320px width in any native system. I mean, there ARE downsides to using web tech, but as a flexible layout system that can gracefully describe very large ranges of targets I have not found it's equal.
weikju 5y ago
Not to mention that PWAs/web apps, while being "open web technologies", are inferior in that [0] by default all the data/secret sauce is for all intents and purposes proprietary and outside the control of the user. Big whoops if you have an open web technology frontend if you cannot escape the platform, with your data, stay on an older version, etc. [0] I'm aware of web apps that use local storage and other strategies to keep user data out of a silo, but these are the exception not the norm
koonsolo 5y ago
> I see no benefits to PWAs Creator of https://rpgplayground.com https://rpgplayground.com here, which features game tech running in the browser, so I definitely disagree with this statement :). Here is a list of benefits that I see: 1. One build runs everywhere, Windows, Linux, Mac, Chromebook (used a lot in schools), Android, iOS, I even have someone running it on an XBox web browser. 2. No download and install, so barrier to entry is way lower. Also great for locked down systems. "Wanna play my game? Play it here" 3. Everyone runs the latest version. 4. Easy update scheme: I update the website, and everyone gets the latest version. 5. Not giving away % of revenue to platform owners. I code in Haxe, so I could easily build a native version for any platform. But I am a one man shop, and maintaining all those versions and updates is way more work. The world is all about trade-offs, and claiming PWA's are either superioir or inferior is a very naive way of decision making.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >1. One build runs everywhere, Windows, Linux, Mac, Chromebook (used a lot in schools), Android, iOS, I even have someone running it on an XBox web browser. This also exists outside of web development (e.g. Qt) >2. No download and install The client must download the source code, same as any other platform. The installation part occurs when the user had to first install a web browser before being able to use your software. Outside of a monstrous application, installation is almost instantaneous these days. >3. Everyone runs the latest version. Nothing new here. For instance web browsers: They download in the background and silently install upon next restart. Also, running the latest version isn't necessarily an advantage, especially if it wasn't the end user who installed that latest version or otherwise has no control over whether it gets installed or when. >4. Easy update scheme: I update the website, and everyone gets the latest version. This might be the only advantage. Though, if such deployment is a requirement, setting up the necessary servers to facilitate the communication with the client isn't nearly as difficult or complex as it was even 5 years ago. >5. Not giving away % of revenue to platform owners. Unless you're talking about an iPhone app, then this isn't a requirement.
TheCoelacanth 5y ago
The web is by far the most portable and secure application platform in history. There are definitely advantages to native apps, but you can't pretend that web apps don't have some major advantages.

by caslon 5y ago

echelon 5y ago

> in what world aren't PWAs, web apps & other web technologies inferior to real apps? Apple controls the iPhone ecosystem. That's how they're worse. It's the single most dictatorial move our industry has seen, and it's damaged our industry to the point we have to go through a single company to reach consumers. The minute native Rust/WASM with custom painted UI and the ability to call device APIs lands, it's game over for app stores. Or it would be, if Apple would allow this stuff to exist on their platform. (They won't.)

caslon 5y ago
No, it's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that PWAs are bad. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web technologies are ridiculously bloated with no intention of actually fixing the problem. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web apps are inferior to every other type of application you can find. You can't blame every single problem on "the iPhone ecosystem." I certainly don't like the iPhone or its software; this doesn't mean that it's somehow responsible for PulseAudio being bad. Not everything can be tied to the iPhone. Really!
- tasogare 5y ago
  I think in fine the PWA problem stems from a lack of education: some developers were exposed only to Javascript and think of it at the alpha and omega of programming. Ironically the web isn't even a platform for developing software to begin with. And because they can't be bothered to even try any other programming toolkit, they want everything else to come in the browser (GPU, SQL, USB, etc), duplicating existing OS functions in a weird half-assed, incomplete, buggy and security-wise questionable way. I don't know what the fix for that is, but probably taking what pure web developers say less seriously would be a good start (in this thread for example, the reference to NPM, a package manager known for the vulnerabilities it enable, is laughable).
  - caslon 5y ago
    Just want to point out for appreciation: Using in fine in an English sentence is fantastic and not done enough.

forgotpwd16 5y ago

Many mobile apps just exist to browse a certain web site (HN, Reddit, etc) at which point making a native app makes little sense if you're just copying the design of a site. This also extends to desktop (Spotify, Steam, etc). The problem with Electron (or CEF or QtWeb*) is that it's running an independent rendering engine adding a significant overhead. If you're already running a browser even complex web apps such as a WebGL sculpter[0] add a minimum usage on the session. Of course there's the problem of persistently running a web browser which may lead to high energy consumption. [0]: https://stephaneginier.com/sculptgl/ https://stephaneginier.com/sculptgl/

caslon 5y ago
Link to a post in this thread that I wrote partially as a response to yours but don't want to duplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27601802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27601802 On a whim, I also opened the front page of reddit (again, in my web browser that's already opened) and the tab is taking 140MB fresh.
- forgotpwd16 5y ago
  Is this page resource usage on the browser or the total? Else, you used the browser's (about:performance in Firefox) or you system's task manager to get this figure? If the later, that is exactly what I meant with engine overhead. You should consider that initial figure shared among tabs/apps.
  - caslon 5y ago
    I used about:performance; I'm not stupid. Is there no expectation of good faith here?
    - forgotpwd16 5y ago
      Strange. It shows only 1.7MB on FF 89.0 (Linux, x64). That's why I thought you're checking the total memory. Then again the total in there is far smaller than what the system usage is, so this manager is unreliable.

adflux 5y ago

>I see no benefits to PWAs For games, sure, native is much better. But for any other app, which doesn't require a lot of rendering and simulation, PWAs are actually a great option. You can have one codebase for both platforms. Through the use of Cordova you can actually use native apis very easily. Also, using PWAS gives you access to the thousands of useful packages in the npm ecosystem. How about the tens of thousands of themes you can use to enhance your app? Or things like Vuetify or TailwindUI to quickly craft attractive UIs If you're not making an app which needs a lot of computational power I would say a PWA is a great option.

caslon 5y ago
That is kind of the exact opposite of the point I was making. Games would be fine as PWAs in theory: nobody expects video games to use few resources or to be power-efficient. Anything else isn't a good fit, because PWAs are ridiculously bloated for fundamental reasons even for basic applications.
- adflux 5y ago
  What do you mean by "ridiculously bloated"?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    The very nature of HTML and CSS which are designed to display some text and maybe a few images make them ridiculously unsuited for literally anything else. You as much as glance at a web page, and it causes a repaint and reflow of the page. Everything else stems from that.
    - BackBlast 5y ago
      HTML+CSS is a layout system that has been refined and heavily used in many screen sizes for several decades now. Try to find an equivalent system that works from 4/8k down to 320px width in any native system. I mean, there ARE downsides to using web tech, but as a flexible layout system that can gracefully describe very large ranges of targets I have not found it's equal.

weikju 5y ago

Not to mention that PWAs/web apps, while being "open web technologies", are inferior in that [0] by default all the data/secret sauce is for all intents and purposes proprietary and outside the control of the user. Big whoops if you have an open web technology frontend if you cannot escape the platform, with your data, stay on an older version, etc. [0] I'm aware of web apps that use local storage and other strategies to keep user data out of a silo, but these are the exception not the norm

koonsolo 5y ago

> I see no benefits to PWAs Creator of https://rpgplayground.com https://rpgplayground.com here, which features game tech running in the browser, so I definitely disagree with this statement :). Here is a list of benefits that I see: 1. One build runs everywhere, Windows, Linux, Mac, Chromebook (used a lot in schools), Android, iOS, I even have someone running it on an XBox web browser. 2. No download and install, so barrier to entry is way lower. Also great for locked down systems. "Wanna play my game? Play it here" 3. Everyone runs the latest version. 4. Easy update scheme: I update the website, and everyone gets the latest version. 5. Not giving away % of revenue to platform owners. I code in Haxe, so I could easily build a native version for any platform. But I am a one man shop, and maintaining all those versions and updates is way more work. The world is all about trade-offs, and claiming PWA's are either superioir or inferior is a very naive way of decision making.

Nicksil 5y ago
>1. One build runs everywhere, Windows, Linux, Mac, Chromebook (used a lot in schools), Android, iOS, I even have someone running it on an XBox web browser. This also exists outside of web development (e.g. Qt) >2. No download and install The client must download the source code, same as any other platform. The installation part occurs when the user had to first install a web browser before being able to use your software. Outside of a monstrous application, installation is almost instantaneous these days. >3. Everyone runs the latest version. Nothing new here. For instance web browsers: They download in the background and silently install upon next restart. Also, running the latest version isn't necessarily an advantage, especially if it wasn't the end user who installed that latest version or otherwise has no control over whether it gets installed or when. >4. Easy update scheme: I update the website, and everyone gets the latest version. This might be the only advantage. Though, if such deployment is a requirement, setting up the necessary servers to facilitate the communication with the client isn't nearly as difficult or complex as it was even 5 years ago. >5. Not giving away % of revenue to platform owners. Unless you're talking about an iPhone app, then this isn't a requirement.

TheCoelacanth 5y ago

The web is by far the most portable and secure application platform in history. There are definitely advantages to native apps, but you can't pretend that web apps don't have some major advantages.