4 ms·

From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male

by vore 5y ago

From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male. This dysphoria causes a great deal of angst and I don't think the benefits of othering them as any kind of second-class woman can outweigh that.

mssundaram 5y ago
I think you've quantified it as second class when it isn't actually so for kathoey or hijra
junon 5y ago
If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms. I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not something someone who's just trying to go about their day would even care about, let alone making a point that "hey by the way you're not biologically a woman, peace". It's such a weird argument to me. Then again, I'm a dirty "transmedicalist" as labelled by the twitter trans community, so what do I know.
- originalvichy 5y ago
  >If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. This is really not a good analogy. An identity-linked issue like this would be closer to someone not being included into a certain in-group. For example an African-American who grows up in a predominantly caucasian could be called "not black" or "not black enough" by someone trying to hurt them based on the way they speak or act differently. You can imagine that this would be alleviated by people not putting up arbitrary rules on who "can be called black".
  - nandhinianand 5y ago
    Not sure why you're getting downvoted.. your analogy is a closer one than that of depression analogy
  - junon 5y ago
    Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder (saying this in the most scientific way possible). It's not a cultural stigma. So no, I disagree that it has any semblance to the "not black enough" argument.
    - originalvichy 5y ago
      I did not claim it was not a mental disorder. I said it is linked with identity in a way which is dissimilar to the depression analogy. Is it far-fetched to say that the severity of negative emotional and mental effects on a person depends on how accepting the culture is of those who do not fit into the majority?
      - junon 5y ago
        No, but that's not what you insinuated, and I feel as though you missed my point - I was simply talking about the reaction by others to a mental condition: saying "you're a biological woman" to a trans woman does about as much good as saying "just be happy" to a depressed person. It doesn't solve anything, and it reduces the very real condition and the effects of said condition down to talking points and virtue signalling. Having gender dysphoria isn't a thing to be ashamed of, just any other mental health condition is not something to be ashamed of. Saying "you're a biological woman sis" is like saying "we're just going to act like you don't have it because it's shameful". It doesn't make any sense from me, nor does it make sense to most of the trans individuals I follow. It seems, yet again, to be the allies that cause the most misinformation (just like we faced with the gay marriage debates).
secondcoming 5y ago
'Feel'. My confusion comes from the fact that these people were not born female and so can have no idea what it is to 'feel' like a woman any more than I can 'feel' like a wolf. This then reduces womanhood to a state of mind, rather than any physical and/or chemical criteria, which I think is wrong. Why should natural born women have their identity diluted? It also seemingly reinforces the 'two genders' claim by categorising trans people as one or the other. Like I said at the top, I am a bit confused by it all.
- Y_Y 5y ago
  This is a really interesting philosophical problem, about qualia generally, but specifically "what it's like to be a something". See the classic essay by Nagel[0]. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%...
- danadannecy 5y ago
  In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our brains tell us doesn't make sense. But, if you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with, are you going to trust logic, or your own experiences? You can't just say to yourself, "guess I'm being illogical, I'm gonna stop feeling this way now". I recently happened to watch a video by a trans woman where she summed up her experiences with trying to understand why she felt this way as: "And why am I a woman? Because I'm a woman. That's it. I mean, I can describe my experiences and my feelings to you to help you understand better, but I can't logically prove anything. And I'm super fucking sorry if you can't handle that mankind was set adrift in an absurd world. That must be super fucking hard for you. Tell me all about it." This was after spending years of her life trying to find a more satisfying explanation and failing to be convinced by any. As far as reinforcing the gender binary, trans women are just as able to be girly girls or tomboys as cis women are, and the same goes for trans men. On top of that, there are plenty of non-binary people, which depending on who you ask, either fall or don't fall under trans. Gender is confusing, I agree, but the fact that there are so many people feeling this way means that we can't just simplify and say "you can't really know what it means to feel like a woman" when the lived reality of these people is much more complex and something they've been struggling with for a while.
bagacrap 5y ago
Olympic medals are not and should not be awarded on the basis of minimizing participant angst.

by vore 5y ago

mssundaram 5y ago

I think you've quantified it as second class when it isn't actually so for kathoey or hijra

junon 5y ago

If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms. I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not something someone who's just trying to go about their day would even care about, let alone making a point that "hey by the way you're not biologically a woman, peace". It's such a weird argument to me. Then again, I'm a dirty "transmedicalist" as labelled by the twitter trans community, so what do I know.

originalvichy 5y ago
>If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. This is really not a good analogy. An identity-linked issue like this would be closer to someone not being included into a certain in-group. For example an African-American who grows up in a predominantly caucasian could be called "not black" or "not black enough" by someone trying to hurt them based on the way they speak or act differently. You can imagine that this would be alleviated by people not putting up arbitrary rules on who "can be called black".
- nandhinianand 5y ago
  Not sure why you're getting downvoted.. your analogy is a closer one than that of depression analogy
- junon 5y ago
  Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder (saying this in the most scientific way possible). It's not a cultural stigma. So no, I disagree that it has any semblance to the "not black enough" argument.
  - originalvichy 5y ago
    I did not claim it was not a mental disorder. I said it is linked with identity in a way which is dissimilar to the depression analogy. Is it far-fetched to say that the severity of negative emotional and mental effects on a person depends on how accepting the culture is of those who do not fit into the majority?
    - junon 5y ago
      No, but that's not what you insinuated, and I feel as though you missed my point - I was simply talking about the reaction by others to a mental condition: saying "you're a biological woman" to a trans woman does about as much good as saying "just be happy" to a depressed person. It doesn't solve anything, and it reduces the very real condition and the effects of said condition down to talking points and virtue signalling. Having gender dysphoria isn't a thing to be ashamed of, just any other mental health condition is not something to be ashamed of. Saying "you're a biological woman sis" is like saying "we're just going to act like you don't have it because it's shameful". It doesn't make any sense from me, nor does it make sense to most of the trans individuals I follow. It seems, yet again, to be the allies that cause the most misinformation (just like we faced with the gay marriage debates).

secondcoming 5y ago

'Feel'. My confusion comes from the fact that these people were not born female and so can have no idea what it is to 'feel' like a woman any more than I can 'feel' like a wolf. This then reduces womanhood to a state of mind, rather than any physical and/or chemical criteria, which I think is wrong. Why should natural born women have their identity diluted? It also seemingly reinforces the 'two genders' claim by categorising trans people as one or the other. Like I said at the top, I am a bit confused by it all.

Y_Y 5y ago
This is a really interesting philosophical problem, about qualia generally, but specifically "what it's like to be a something". See the classic essay by Nagel[0]. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%...
danadannecy 5y ago
In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our brains tell us doesn't make sense. But, if you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with, are you going to trust logic, or your own experiences? You can't just say to yourself, "guess I'm being illogical, I'm gonna stop feeling this way now". I recently happened to watch a video by a trans woman where she summed up her experiences with trying to understand why she felt this way as: "And why am I a woman? Because I'm a woman. That's it. I mean, I can describe my experiences and my feelings to you to help you understand better, but I can't logically prove anything. And I'm super fucking sorry if you can't handle that mankind was set adrift in an absurd world. That must be super fucking hard for you. Tell me all about it." This was after spending years of her life trying to find a more satisfying explanation and failing to be convinced by any. As far as reinforcing the gender binary, trans women are just as able to be girly girls or tomboys as cis women are, and the same goes for trans men. On top of that, there are plenty of non-binary people, which depending on who you ask, either fall or don't fall under trans. Gender is confusing, I agree, but the fact that there are so many people feeling this way means that we can't just simplify and say "you can't really know what it means to feel like a woman" when the lived reality of these people is much more complex and something they've been struggling with for a while.

bagacrap 5y ago

Olympic medals are not and should not be awarded on the basis of minimizing participant angst.