4 ms·

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty e

by ffggvv 5y ago

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

gugagore 5y ago
that is correct, and to be fair, not contested by the parent comment. you might be hard-pressed to find two bodies each "exactly like" the other. The interesting questions here are not about exactly equal, but about equivalence classes of people, and in different contexts.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  The argument is that even hrt isn't enough to transfer someone from one class to another.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    There are plenty of banned performance enhancing substances, so regardless of what anyone means by gender, I doubt that’s a useful distinction with regard to the relationship between gender and athletic performance. I think a better question is: Where is the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable medical intervention?
ben_w 5y ago
I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jdjsksmdj 5y ago
  No, activists are keen to see these children, most of whom would turn out to be homosexual if not pushed through affirmative therapy, sterilized. The "treatments" for transition render the trans person incapable of orgasm, obliterate their sex drive, and remove their genitals. About half will commit suicide, and detransitioners are shunned and mocked. Resources and communities online like r/egg_irl that offer "support" for trans questioning people downplay the negatives of transition That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. More persecution of homosexuals. Read the "When Sons Become Daughters" series on Quillette. And don't get me started on the propaganda that's out there that nobody will talk about in polite company. Go search for "sissy training" on PornHub. Ask yourself: who is making hypnosis videos encouraging boys to sterilize themselves and have sex with men, and why?
  - yerwhat01010 5y ago
    > Go search for "sissy training" on PornHub. I searched. I can't figure out what these videos are about from the titles/thumbnails, and I'll be damned if I'm actually going to watch these things. Can you summarize?
- ffggvv 5y ago
  yeah but even then it doesn’t change your chromosomes
  - ben_w 5y ago
    Ultimately irrelevant, given the chromosomes produce stuff we can synthesise or inhibit. Not yet perfectly of course, but anabolic steroids have been synthesised since the 1930s, and are effective enough to be banned in sport.
    - ffggvv 5y ago
      not really. there’s a lot more to you than just things you synthesize or inhibit. not to mention development that happens in the womb etc that’s non reversible. hormones won’t change your bone structure or the shape of your hips or a million other things
      - ben_w 5y ago
        It’s still an open question as to why trans people are trans, but it definitely looks like something is already different as early as the womb. But that isn’t important, because even if it were false: Purely for the question of athletics, athletic performance trumps all else. Medical doctors will still need to know about chromosomes for dealing with chromosomal disorders, and if you’ve had your gonads out you’re not going to get gonad cancer, but purely for gender-related athletics issues, the 80-20 principle applies: most of the “million” things your chromosomes do are the same for basically everyone (and thus the reason nobody is born a literal banana), then there’s the subset of chromosomal stuff which affects athletic performance, then the subset of that subset where the gender interacts with the athletic genes such that men and women with those genes perform differently, and in that subset of a subset the difference can be overwhelmed by externally supplied steroids. Which is why steroids are banned. Now, in the specific case in this article, transition happened well into adulthood, and the athlete says: > Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known. > "So why is it still a question whether two decades, from puberty to the age of 35, with the hormonal system of a man also would give an advantage [in competing against women]? Obviously this isn’t the same as the case of someone transitioning pre-puberty. But, as I say, it’s why some trans people want to transition pre-puberty.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  If you can't even legally consent to have sex before puberty, why are you supposed to be able to consent to change it at the same age?

by ffggvv 5y ago

gugagore 5y ago

that is correct, and to be fair, not contested by the parent comment. you might be hard-pressed to find two bodies each "exactly like" the other. The interesting questions here are not about exactly equal, but about equivalence classes of people, and in different contexts.

eptcyka 5y ago
The argument is that even hrt isn't enough to transfer someone from one class to another.
- ben_w 5y ago
  There are plenty of banned performance enhancing substances, so regardless of what anyone means by gender, I doubt that’s a useful distinction with regard to the relationship between gender and athletic performance. I think a better question is: Where is the boundary between acceptable and unacceptable medical intervention?

ben_w 5y ago

I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jdjsksmdj 5y ago
No, activists are keen to see these children, most of whom would turn out to be homosexual if not pushed through affirmative therapy, sterilized. The "treatments" for transition render the trans person incapable of orgasm, obliterate their sex drive, and remove their genitals. About half will commit suicide, and detransitioners are shunned and mocked. Resources and communities online like r/egg_irl that offer "support" for trans questioning people downplay the negatives of transition That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. More persecution of homosexuals. Read the "When Sons Become Daughters" series on Quillette. And don't get me started on the propaganda that's out there that nobody will talk about in polite company. Go search for "sissy training" on PornHub. Ask yourself: who is making hypnosis videos encouraging boys to sterilize themselves and have sex with men, and why?
- yerwhat01010 5y ago
  > Go search for "sissy training" on PornHub. I searched. I can't figure out what these videos are about from the titles/thumbnails, and I'll be damned if I'm actually going to watch these things. Can you summarize?
ffggvv 5y ago
yeah but even then it doesn’t change your chromosomes
- ben_w 5y ago
  Ultimately irrelevant, given the chromosomes produce stuff we can synthesise or inhibit. Not yet perfectly of course, but anabolic steroids have been synthesised since the 1930s, and are effective enough to be banned in sport.
  - ffggvv 5y ago
    not really. there’s a lot more to you than just things you synthesize or inhibit. not to mention development that happens in the womb etc that’s non reversible. hormones won’t change your bone structure or the shape of your hips or a million other things
    - ben_w 5y ago
      It’s still an open question as to why trans people are trans, but it definitely looks like something is already different as early as the womb. But that isn’t important, because even if it were false: Purely for the question of athletics, athletic performance trumps all else. Medical doctors will still need to know about chromosomes for dealing with chromosomal disorders, and if you’ve had your gonads out you’re not going to get gonad cancer, but purely for gender-related athletics issues, the 80-20 principle applies: most of the “million” things your chromosomes do are the same for basically everyone (and thus the reason nobody is born a literal banana), then there’s the subset of chromosomal stuff which affects athletic performance, then the subset of that subset where the gender interacts with the athletic genes such that men and women with those genes perform differently, and in that subset of a subset the difference can be overwhelmed by externally supplied steroids. Which is why steroids are banned. Now, in the specific case in this article, transition happened well into adulthood, and the athlete says: > Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known. > "So why is it still a question whether two decades, from puberty to the age of 35, with the hormonal system of a man also would give an advantage [in competing against women]? Obviously this isn’t the same as the case of someone transitioning pre-puberty. But, as I say, it’s why some trans people want to transition pre-puberty.
CRConrad 5y ago
If you can't even legally consent to have sex before puberty, why are you supposed to be able to consent to change it at the same age?