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I just read Cory Doctorow's column about quitting tobacco: https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 He n

by xrd 5y ago

I just read Cory Doctorow's column about quitting tobacco: https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 https://doctorow.medium.com/i-quit-9ae7b6010c99 He notes how big tobacco authored the playbook for all disinformation, that everyone uses right now: "a denialist doesn’t want to convince you that smoking is safe, they just want to convince that it’s impossible to say whether smoking is safe or not." Apple is intentionally making a "not truly shitty, just bad enough" browser to have us all eternally question whether PWAs, web apps and other open web technologies are inferior to apps. It's worth billions to them to do that. And, its awful that they are destroying a sphere where open culture could thrive and blossom while they do that.

alphabettsy 5y ago
Maybe, but even on desktop I nearly always prefer a native app over a web app.
- executesorder66 5y ago
  And in which cases specifically do you prefer a web app on desktop? I can't think of any that could possibly be better.
  - 72deluxe 5y ago
    I can think of the "desktop" apps that are actually a bundled web browser like Slack and Skype. I utterly detest them - slow and without proper native menus and memory hogs. If only a native toolkit had been available to build the UI........ oh wait....
nimih 5y ago
Maybe it's the other direction, and Apple is trying to get website builders to realize that you can just serve an HTML page with a simple stylesheet, some images, and some forms, and it can be a great User Experience (UX).
- echelon 5y ago
  You can't deploy Unreal Engine, Netflix, or Spotify as a nice experience with plain HTML. (Maybe if the web had evolved differently, but that's an alternate history without Steve Jobs purposely crippling the web.) Apple are a bunch of crooks that want everything to be in the App Store so that they can control it and twist these other companies' arms. (Yours too, if you're an indie developer or startup.) Apple gaslighted us into thinking this is okay, meanwhile we bleed money sitting in their stupid walled garden jail. (I'm sick and tired of people caring about what's good for Apple. They have more money than God, and they don't need our welfare. Especially not while they're breaking our backs.) A nice step towards a better web would be to require that Apple allow non-Safari browsers on iPhone.
  - jbverschoor 5y ago
    Then don’t buy an iPhone, and don’t develop for it. Create the BEST Android and Linux desktop experience you can.
    - echelon 5y ago
      Great, so ignore half of US consumers? Apple are totalitarian assholes taking advantage of their market position. They've redefined computing as a "protected" function. (Read: protection = regulated and taxed) I really wish it had been Microsoft that won instead. You'd all be complaining just like me.
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      ...as if developers are building things solely for themselves.
  - nimih 5y ago
    Why in the world would you want to run Unreal Engine, Netflix, or Spotify in a browser on your phone, a platform which is notable for being constrained in memory, processing power, and battery life? My original comment was a little glib, but if Apple's evil plan /really is/ to twist peoples' arms into not making software engineering decisions that are prima facie ridiculous, then more power to them tbh.
imagin8or 5y ago
Somilarly, the strategy for the Conservative Party in the UK for many years has been to systematically underfund the NHS so that the cracks start to show and they have to fly in with private healthcare or private healthcare insurance provisions. Many party members hate the NHS, but the UK public love it. So they're stuck making claims to support it, but in reality funding per head in real terms falls and falls. They just have to make it bad enough.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  Bullshit. We hear this all the time about education in the US. "Oh, we just don't fund it enough because of those eevviiill Republicans!" There's plenty of money. It's just poorly spent.
  - widdershins 5y ago
    The UK spends less per capita on healthcare than almost any other G7 nation (except Italy) [1], while maintaining a good standard of care [2]. That suggests that compared to other countries: 1. There isn't plenty of money 2. It's spent quite effectively [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... [2] https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-questions-nhs-international-comparisons https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-elect...
  - eigenket 5y ago
    Bullshit. We hear this all the time about stuff happening outside the USA. "oh x can't be happening because its different to my super-narrow experience of one country that I've randomly decided is universal".
- ppf 5y ago
  I don't love the NHS. I think it has shown what happens when you combine the potentially endless expense of healthcare with the beauraucracy of government. How many other countries justified their Covid lockdowns with statements like "we need to protect our healthcare service"?? Our healthcare service is to protect us. I live in Wales, where the Labour party has been in power at all levels of government for decades, and the Welsh NHS is practically non-functional. Personally, I think an ordered transition to something like every other European country has (a mix of very basic public healthcare and various levels of private healthcare) is the best way forwards.
caslon 5y ago
I mean, in what world aren't "PWAs, web apps and other web technologies" inferior to real apps? I have complex real-time 3D video games that do things like fluid simulation and have dynamic maps that take fewer system resources than any Electron or QtWebkit/QtWebEngine app I've got. I can use CSS for GTK and actually-native Qt, and they don't wreck my system as hard. I see no benefits to PWAs; it sure seems like Apple's doing everyone a favor by making them less common, and I say this as a Linux user who kinda likes having more professionally-crafted apps. I'm pretty much the target audience for them, given that if they don't exist, people are still going to make apps for Mac and Windows. And yet, I would sacrifice every single one of them without a second thought. They don't add enough benefit to be worth it.
- echelon 5y ago
  > in what world aren't PWAs, web apps & other web technologies inferior to real apps? Apple controls the iPhone ecosystem. That's how they're worse. It's the single most dictatorial move our industry has seen, and it's damaged our industry to the point we have to go through a single company to reach consumers. The minute native Rust/WASM with custom painted UI and the ability to call device APIs lands, it's game over for app stores. Or it would be, if Apple would allow this stuff to exist on their platform. (They won't.)
  - caslon 5y ago
    No, it's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that PWAs are bad. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web technologies are ridiculously bloated with no intention of actually fixing the problem. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web apps are inferior to every other type of application you can find. You can't blame every single problem on "the iPhone ecosystem." I certainly don't like the iPhone or its software; this doesn't mean that it's somehow responsible for PulseAudio being bad. Not everything can be tied to the iPhone. Really!
    - tasogare 5y ago
      I think in fine the PWA problem stems from a lack of education: some developers were exposed only to Javascript and think of it at the alpha and omega of programming. Ironically the web isn't even a platform for developing software to begin with. And because they can't be bothered to even try any other programming toolkit, they want everything else to come in the browser (GPU, SQL, USB, etc), duplicating existing OS functions in a weird half-assed, incomplete, buggy and security-wise questionable way. I don't know what the fix for that is, but probably taking what pure web developers say less seriously would be a good start (in this thread for example, the reference to NPM, a package manager known for the vulnerabilities it enable, is laughable).
JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
Nobody should be genuinely surprised a trillion-dollar company is trying to defend it's walled garden. If only portable computing devices arrived before the business models evolved. I would love the flexibility of a desktop operating system on my mobile device.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  > portable computing devices arrived before the business models evolved > flexibility of a desktop operating system on my mobile device There used to be powerful Palm and Windows PDAs with very capable operating systems and lots of complicated software. There were devices like the Nokia N900 (then the iPhone came and destroyed everything and everyone) and there still are handheld devices with full operating systems (like the GPD computers). People just don't want those. Maybe you do, but for every you there are millions who don't. It's not about the business models.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
freediver 5y ago
> Apple is intentionally making a "not truly shitty, just bad enough" browser to have us all eternally question whether PWAs, web apps and other open web technologies are inferior to apps. It is a fact that a company which derives 99% of its revenue from hardware/apps is against PWA (Apple), and company that derives 99% of its revenue from the web (Google) is pushing PWA very hard. However to me as a user what Apple is doing makes much more sense. If you care for the web, you should be doing exactly what Apple is doing and that is preventing web from touching your hardware as much as possible.

by xrd 5y ago

alphabettsy 5y ago

Maybe, but even on desktop I nearly always prefer a native app over a web app.

executesorder66 5y ago
And in which cases specifically do you prefer a web app on desktop? I can't think of any that could possibly be better.
- 72deluxe 5y ago
  I can think of the "desktop" apps that are actually a bundled web browser like Slack and Skype. I utterly detest them - slow and without proper native menus and memory hogs. If only a native toolkit had been available to build the UI........ oh wait....

nimih 5y ago

Maybe it's the other direction, and Apple is trying to get website builders to realize that you can just serve an HTML page with a simple stylesheet, some images, and some forms, and it can be a great User Experience (UX).

echelon 5y ago
You can't deploy Unreal Engine, Netflix, or Spotify as a nice experience with plain HTML. (Maybe if the web had evolved differently, but that's an alternate history without Steve Jobs purposely crippling the web.) Apple are a bunch of crooks that want everything to be in the App Store so that they can control it and twist these other companies' arms. (Yours too, if you're an indie developer or startup.) Apple gaslighted us into thinking this is okay, meanwhile we bleed money sitting in their stupid walled garden jail. (I'm sick and tired of people caring about what's good for Apple. They have more money than God, and they don't need our welfare. Especially not while they're breaking our backs.) A nice step towards a better web would be to require that Apple allow non-Safari browsers on iPhone.
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  Then don’t buy an iPhone, and don’t develop for it. Create the BEST Android and Linux desktop experience you can.
  - echelon 5y ago
    Great, so ignore half of US consumers? Apple are totalitarian assholes taking advantage of their market position. They've redefined computing as a "protected" function. (Read: protection = regulated and taxed) I really wish it had been Microsoft that won instead. You'd all be complaining just like me.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    ...as if developers are building things solely for themselves.
- nimih 5y ago
  Why in the world would you want to run Unreal Engine, Netflix, or Spotify in a browser on your phone, a platform which is notable for being constrained in memory, processing power, and battery life? My original comment was a little glib, but if Apple's evil plan /really is/ to twist peoples' arms into not making software engineering decisions that are prima facie ridiculous, then more power to them tbh.

imagin8or 5y ago

Somilarly, the strategy for the Conservative Party in the UK for many years has been to systematically underfund the NHS so that the cracks start to show and they have to fly in with private healthcare or private healthcare insurance provisions. Many party members hate the NHS, but the UK public love it. So they're stuck making claims to support it, but in reality funding per head in real terms falls and falls. They just have to make it bad enough.

6f8986c3 5y ago
Bullshit. We hear this all the time about education in the US. "Oh, we just don't fund it enough because of those eevviiill Republicans!" There's plenty of money. It's just poorly spent.
- widdershins 5y ago
  The UK spends less per capita on healthcare than almost any other G7 nation (except Italy) [1], while maintaining a good standard of care [2]. That suggests that compared to other countries: 1. There isn't plenty of money 2. It's spent quite effectively [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan... [2] https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-questions-nhs-international-comparisons https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-elect...
- eigenket 5y ago
  Bullshit. We hear this all the time about stuff happening outside the USA. "oh x can't be happening because its different to my super-narrow experience of one country that I've randomly decided is universal".
ppf 5y ago
I don't love the NHS. I think it has shown what happens when you combine the potentially endless expense of healthcare with the beauraucracy of government. How many other countries justified their Covid lockdowns with statements like "we need to protect our healthcare service"?? Our healthcare service is to protect us. I live in Wales, where the Labour party has been in power at all levels of government for decades, and the Welsh NHS is practically non-functional. Personally, I think an ordered transition to something like every other European country has (a mix of very basic public healthcare and various levels of private healthcare) is the best way forwards.

caslon 5y ago

I mean, in what world aren't "PWAs, web apps and other web technologies" inferior to real apps? I have complex real-time 3D video games that do things like fluid simulation and have dynamic maps that take fewer system resources than any Electron or QtWebkit/QtWebEngine app I've got. I can use CSS for GTK and actually-native Qt, and they don't wreck my system as hard. I see no benefits to PWAs; it sure seems like Apple's doing everyone a favor by making them less common, and I say this as a Linux user who kinda likes having more professionally-crafted apps. I'm pretty much the target audience for them, given that if they don't exist, people are still going to make apps for Mac and Windows. And yet, I would sacrifice every single one of them without a second thought. They don't add enough benefit to be worth it.

echelon 5y ago
> in what world aren't PWAs, web apps & other web technologies inferior to real apps? Apple controls the iPhone ecosystem. That's how they're worse. It's the single most dictatorial move our industry has seen, and it's damaged our industry to the point we have to go through a single company to reach consumers. The minute native Rust/WASM with custom painted UI and the ability to call device APIs lands, it's game over for app stores. Or it would be, if Apple would allow this stuff to exist on their platform. (They won't.)
- caslon 5y ago
  No, it's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that PWAs are bad. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web technologies are ridiculously bloated with no intention of actually fixing the problem. It's not because of the iPhone ecosystem that web apps are inferior to every other type of application you can find. You can't blame every single problem on "the iPhone ecosystem." I certainly don't like the iPhone or its software; this doesn't mean that it's somehow responsible for PulseAudio being bad. Not everything can be tied to the iPhone. Really!
  - tasogare 5y ago
    I think in fine the PWA problem stems from a lack of education: some developers were exposed only to Javascript and think of it at the alpha and omega of programming. Ironically the web isn't even a platform for developing software to begin with. And because they can't be bothered to even try any other programming toolkit, they want everything else to come in the browser (GPU, SQL, USB, etc), duplicating existing OS functions in a weird half-assed, incomplete, buggy and security-wise questionable way. I don't know what the fix for that is, but probably taking what pure web developers say less seriously would be a good start (in this thread for example, the reference to NPM, a package manager known for the vulnerabilities it enable, is laughable).

JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago

Nobody should be genuinely surprised a trillion-dollar company is trying to defend it's walled garden. If only portable computing devices arrived before the business models evolved. I would love the flexibility of a desktop operating system on my mobile device.

Toutouxc 5y ago
> portable computing devices arrived before the business models evolved > flexibility of a desktop operating system on my mobile device There used to be powerful Palm and Windows PDAs with very capable operating systems and lots of complicated software. There were devices like the Nokia N900 (then the iPhone came and destroyed everything and everyone) and there still are handheld devices with full operating systems (like the GPD computers). People just don't want those. Maybe you do, but for every you there are millions who don't. It's not about the business models.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

freediver 5y ago

> Apple is intentionally making a "not truly shitty, just bad enough" browser to have us all eternally question whether PWAs, web apps and other open web technologies are inferior to apps. It is a fact that a company which derives 99% of its revenue from hardware/apps is against PWA (Apple), and company that derives 99% of its revenue from the web (Google) is pushing PWA very hard. However to me as a user what Apple is doing makes much more sense. If you care for the web, you should be doing exactly what Apple is doing and that is preventing web from touching your hardware as much as possible.