7 ms·

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent

by jp0d 5y ago

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they are. And of course it goes without saying that I've written this with all due respect to such individuals and I bear no malice towards anyone.

chitowneats 5y ago
It doesn't go without saying. Which is why you said it. The pro-trans movement starts from the assumption that any disagreement with their ideology is "harm". They've bullied everyone into accepting what is transparently a ridiculous situation; often by alleging bad faith. I'm very happy to see someone from professional women's weightlifting refer to this as a "bad joke".
- vore 5y ago
  "Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss the plight of trans people at large.
  - mssundaram 5y ago
    I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?
    - leephillips 5y ago
      Among some populations it may be a social contagion: https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3 https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3 What other animals have a similar level of consciousness? You can‘t form the idea that you are “in the wrong body” unless that idea has been provided to you by your culture. You need linguistic and social support to even have the concept. EDIT: Oh, you may be interested in the phenomenon of what you might call “trans” non-human animals: individuals who behave like those of the opposite sex. Apparently in some species their physical characteristics can even change, such as female lions that grow manes. But nobody is confused enough to say “trans lady lions are lady lions“; that confusion is reserved for humans. In mammals, the sex can not change. But it‘s an interesting phenomenon.
      - makeworld 5y ago
        Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.
        honkdaddy 5y ago
        Here's a study referenced in the book. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ The layman's explanation of the phenomenon is that parents observe a rapidly onset expression of gender dysphoria in their teenage daughters which "seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe."
        makeworld 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610041
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    I have no issue with how they choose to self identify. I accept trans-identifying individuals and I will use whichever pronouns they ask of me. What I have an issue with is this type of behavior where they turn things upside down without any care for others. In this case, they're stealing glory from and seriously hampering the careers of lifelong female athletes. Imagine lifting since you were a teenage girl, and someone else in their mid 30's, who would not have qualified for the men's competition, comes along to take your Olympic medal after going through a sex change procedure. It's deeply disrespectful to women. It requires a certain zealotry to bully your way into female spaces like this.
    - vore 5y ago
      I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large and if that is not your intent then I retract my initial comment. That said, I don't really agree with this clarification either: no trans woman is setting out to have gender reassignment to bully their way into competing against women who were lifting since they were teenagers. I think you are attributing this to malice that is simply not there, and it is only an artifact of unfortunate circumstance. Trans women certainly don't want to be in this situation either: I'm sure they would much rather be born biologically female and compete that way!
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at. If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.
      - junon 5y ago
        > pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case. So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they even claim it themselves (transmedicalism vs. gender identity, etc). Very little of it these days is based on science or medical prognosis.
jp0d 5y ago
If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass and then identifying as a woman to beat other women. I think there should be a line. Of course there should be no discrimination against anyone for their race/gender/beliefs etc. But there is a reason why weight categories and gender exist in boxing and martial arts. It's just absurd that we've to even discuss this.
- ryanobjc 5y ago
  > But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know? The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basically. A "lifetime" of muscle mass will last for how long once someone starts taking androgen blockers then estrogen? The reality is while we think of 'sex' as being some kind of chromosomal thing, that isn't what really separates the 'genders'. After all, apart from genitals, there is little external difference in babies. So it isn't exactly the XY/XX... of course one might say "but that happens during puberty", which is what exactly? The significant rise of sex-hormones. As the saying goes "if you can't make your own, store bought is fine" (regarding neuro-transmitters, sex hormones, etc). So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? If you're sure, why are you sure? "I don't think it's fair" ... but why? Is is fair to trans athletes?
  - andreareina 5y ago
    Not just as strong, but there does remain an advantage. TFA goes into this: > Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known. It's easier to regain lost muscle mass than it is to gain it in the first place.

by jp0d 5y ago

chitowneats 5y ago

It doesn't go without saying. Which is why you said it. The pro-trans movement starts from the assumption that any disagreement with their ideology is "harm". They've bullied everyone into accepting what is transparently a ridiculous situation; often by alleging bad faith. I'm very happy to see someone from professional women's weightlifting refer to this as a "bad joke".

vore 5y ago
"Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss the plight of trans people at large.
- mssundaram 5y ago
  I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?
  - leephillips 5y ago
    Among some populations it may be a social contagion: https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3 https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3 What other animals have a similar level of consciousness? You can‘t form the idea that you are “in the wrong body” unless that idea has been provided to you by your culture. You need linguistic and social support to even have the concept. EDIT: Oh, you may be interested in the phenomenon of what you might call “trans” non-human animals: individuals who behave like those of the opposite sex. Apparently in some species their physical characteristics can even change, such as female lions that grow manes. But nobody is confused enough to say “trans lady lions are lady lions“; that confusion is reserved for humans. In mammals, the sex can not change. But it‘s an interesting phenomenon.
    - makeworld 5y ago
      Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.
      - honkdaddy 5y ago
        Here's a study referenced in the book. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ The layman's explanation of the phenomenon is that parents observe a rapidly onset expression of gender dysphoria in their teenage daughters which "seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe."
        makeworld 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610041 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610041
- chitowneats 5y ago
  I have no issue with how they choose to self identify. I accept trans-identifying individuals and I will use whichever pronouns they ask of me. What I have an issue with is this type of behavior where they turn things upside down without any care for others. In this case, they're stealing glory from and seriously hampering the careers of lifelong female athletes. Imagine lifting since you were a teenage girl, and someone else in their mid 30's, who would not have qualified for the men's competition, comes along to take your Olympic medal after going through a sex change procedure. It's deeply disrespectful to women. It requires a certain zealotry to bully your way into female spaces like this.
  - vore 5y ago
    I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large and if that is not your intent then I retract my initial comment. That said, I don't really agree with this clarification either: no trans woman is setting out to have gender reassignment to bully their way into competing against women who were lifting since they were teenagers. I think you are attributing this to malice that is simply not there, and it is only an artifact of unfortunate circumstance. Trans women certainly don't want to be in this situation either: I'm sure they would much rather be born biologically female and compete that way!
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at. If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.
    - junon 5y ago
      > pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case. So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they even claim it themselves (transmedicalism vs. gender identity, etc). Very little of it these days is based on science or medical prognosis.

jp0d 5y ago

If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass and then identifying as a woman to beat other women. I think there should be a line. Of course there should be no discrimination against anyone for their race/gender/beliefs etc. But there is a reason why weight categories and gender exist in boxing and martial arts. It's just absurd that we've to even discuss this.

ryanobjc 5y ago
> But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know? The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basically. A "lifetime" of muscle mass will last for how long once someone starts taking androgen blockers then estrogen? The reality is while we think of 'sex' as being some kind of chromosomal thing, that isn't what really separates the 'genders'. After all, apart from genitals, there is little external difference in babies. So it isn't exactly the XY/XX... of course one might say "but that happens during puberty", which is what exactly? The significant rise of sex-hormones. As the saying goes "if you can't make your own, store bought is fine" (regarding neuro-transmitters, sex hormones, etc). So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? If you're sure, why are you sure? "I don't think it's fair" ... but why? Is is fair to trans athletes?
- andreareina 5y ago
  Not just as strong, but there does remain an advantage. TFA goes into this: > Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known. It's easier to regain lost muscle mass than it is to gain it in the first place.