3 ms·

I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place i

by Zababa 5y ago

I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place in the society associated with their gender (the one they transitionned into) is really important. For example, in my experience, trans women want to be recognized as women and live mostly the same as cis women. I first encountered this because I was puzzled as to why so many trans people seemed to be renforcing gender roles instead of trying to abolish them. The answer is that gender roles matter a lot to them, and fitting in matters a lot to them too. That's why I think the "third gender" solution would be really unsatisfying for most (or at least a part).

wiredone 5y ago
This may be true, however you can't have it both ways. The argument that competing in Super-Heavy weight lifting (the class that Laurel competes in) is following a general western stereotype of cis women is laughable at best. I'd argue that by standards from the last 100 years it's almost as far from it as a sport can be.
trainsplanes 5y ago
Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a strictly binary system.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of trans people and they're all individuals with their own desires and issues so this is an oversimplification. But I've been many time surprised by their desire to fit in traditional gender roles.
  - trainsplanes 5y ago
    An oft-repeated mantra is also that "gender is a social construct." I think up until now, American society has for the most part retained some pretty strict images of gender roles and stereotypes. Turn on a TV and it's bumbling, fat father and smart, responsible wife or buff, rugged masculine hero and sexy seductress on nearly every channel. Not much of a middle in the public eye. Now that it's being normalized that you don't have to be in either of those groups or even try to be anything like them, kids a generation from now might grow up with a different standard. Plus, honestly, despite what people try to say, kids put things into distinct groups. With a growing presence of trans people in media, I do wonder whether kids will grow up with the idea that "this is fine, but different." The trans people simply being the male/female gender they identify as is a social thing that we're taught to accept, which could very well change because the next generation doesn't think of it that way anymore. See also: America's formerly strict ideas of race. Not long ago, you were white, black, or asian and society decided what you were. Now we accept that there are in betweens and people outside those labels, and none of them are bad identities to have.

by Zababa 5y ago

wiredone 5y ago

This may be true, however you can't have it both ways. The argument that competing in Super-Heavy weight lifting (the class that Laurel competes in) is following a general western stereotype of cis women is laughable at best. I'd argue that by standards from the last 100 years it's almost as far from it as a sport can be.

trainsplanes 5y ago

Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a strictly binary system.

Zababa 5y ago
I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of trans people and they're all individuals with their own desires and issues so this is an oversimplification. But I've been many time surprised by their desire to fit in traditional gender roles.
- trainsplanes 5y ago
  An oft-repeated mantra is also that "gender is a social construct." I think up until now, American society has for the most part retained some pretty strict images of gender roles and stereotypes. Turn on a TV and it's bumbling, fat father and smart, responsible wife or buff, rugged masculine hero and sexy seductress on nearly every channel. Not much of a middle in the public eye. Now that it's being normalized that you don't have to be in either of those groups or even try to be anything like them, kids a generation from now might grow up with a different standard. Plus, honestly, despite what people try to say, kids put things into distinct groups. With a growing presence of trans people in media, I do wonder whether kids will grow up with the idea that "this is fine, but different." The trans people simply being the male/female gender they identify as is a social thing that we're taught to accept, which could very well change because the next generation doesn't think of it that way anymore. See also: America's formerly strict ideas of race. Not long ago, you were white, black, or asian and society decided what you were. Now we accept that there are in betweens and people outside those labels, and none of them are bad identities to have.