6 ms·

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many pa

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian subcontinent and culturally related areas have hijra. They're not seen as the same as women, but they're not seen as men either. They're something else, and it's okay. I've also seen a lot of westerners trying to push their ideas of gender globally and getting enraged when it doesn't fit. Some people get enraged when, for example, Thai kathoey aren't simply referred to as women, but for a lot of those people in Thailand, they don't see themselves as identical to women. So while trying to stop people from misgendering people, they overstep and misgender people who weren't being misgendered.

stOneskull 5y ago
like in Samoa, they've always had the 3rd gender, Fa’afafine.
- tiahura 5y ago
  In Tahiti they’re Māhū or raerae.
Mediterraneo10 5y ago
It is common to hear a transwoman claim (indeed, even occasionally here on HN) that anything other than recognizing them as equal to ciswomen is an act of violence and prejudice against them, and at worst, they utter some invective about “TERFs”. So, suggesting the recognition of a new gender is unlikely to satisfy at least those strident individuals.
- moeris 5y ago
  Referring to trans people as "a transgender" is rude. If your other statements are as ill informed and inconsiderate, then it's no wonder your conversations with the trans community have been confrontational.
  - aardvarkr 5y ago
    Anddd that’s proving his point. Assuming you’re not a troll making a satirical post, this is pretty much textbook toxic behavior. You respond with aggression when instead you could be nice. People respond with an equal and opposite reaction so when you come out swinging you lose an opportunity where you could educate them instead of spreading more hate.
    - adaml_623 5y ago
      Reminds me of a funny story where I was informed that transgendered[0] isn't a word. And in fact you can see a definition on Urban dictionary where someone has said it is "a word that doesn't exist". It turns out that while the word was once used widely it has recently become forbidden for grammatical reasons. It's not surprising this debate is so broken when basic terms aren't even constant. [0] - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgendered https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgendered
      - Y_Y 5y ago
        What is the shortest word that doesn't exist?
- vore 5y ago
  From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male. This dysphoria causes a great deal of angst and I don't think the benefits of othering them as any kind of second-class woman can outweigh that.
  - mssundaram 5y ago
    I think you've quantified it as second class when it isn't actually so for kathoey or hijra
  - junon 5y ago
    If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms. I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not something someone who's just trying to go about their day would even care about, let alone making a point that "hey by the way you're not biologically a woman, peace". It's such a weird argument to me. Then again, I'm a dirty "transmedicalist" as labelled by the twitter trans community, so what do I know.
    - originalvichy 5y ago
      >If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. This is really not a good analogy. An identity-linked issue like this would be closer to someone not being included into a certain in-group. For example an African-American who grows up in a predominantly caucasian could be called "not black" or "not black enough" by someone trying to hurt them based on the way they speak or act differently. You can imagine that this would be alleviated by people not putting up arbitrary rules on who "can be called black".
      - nandhinianand 5y ago
- andyxor 5y ago
  There is no “transwoman”, it’s a dude with mental illness
- jurassic 5y ago
  These aggressive activists do more to inflame anti-trans sentiment than any other. I'm fine with live and let live. Call yourself what you want, wear what you want, marry who you want -- no problem. But today's trans-activist is not satisfied with that; they also want to bully people and organizations into absurd things like having a person who lived and developed as a man for 35 years competing in strength sport against biological women. It's not safe to say in liberal workplaces anymore, but this dynamic of transwomen activists forcing their way into women's spaces is creating exactly the same dynamic as men dominating women in other areas of life. As a woman, I'm tired of it. The latest example from my life: At my company all the women's groups are being rebranded to "gender minorities" groups to accommodate the wishes of a few activists deploying the usual bully tactics. If you disagree at all, you are labeled a TERF and they try to get you fired. So who, exactly, is creating the hostile workplace?
Zababa 5y ago
I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place in the society associated with their gender (the one they transitionned into) is really important. For example, in my experience, trans women want to be recognized as women and live mostly the same as cis women. I first encountered this because I was puzzled as to why so many trans people seemed to be renforcing gender roles instead of trying to abolish them. The answer is that gender roles matter a lot to them, and fitting in matters a lot to them too. That's why I think the "third gender" solution would be really unsatisfying for most (or at least a part).
- wiredone 5y ago
  This may be true, however you can't have it both ways. The argument that competing in Super-Heavy weight lifting (the class that Laurel competes in) is following a general western stereotype of cis women is laughable at best. I'd argue that by standards from the last 100 years it's almost as far from it as a sport can be.
- trainsplanes 5y ago
  Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a strictly binary system.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of trans people and they're all individuals with their own desires and issues so this is an oversimplification. But I've been many time surprised by their desire to fit in traditional gender roles.
_tik_ 5y ago
Sad to say third/fourth gender is mostly still unacceptable in most Asian countries. Only acceptable in small part of Asians. Third/fourth gender is more acceptable in ancient Asia though. In Thailand Kathoy mostly compete in Men Category.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Have you ever been to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh?
dendrite9 5y ago
I recently learned that the Navajo historically recognized more than two genders. This article says at least 6 but initially I heard 4. It's not something I've looked into much so I can't really say. "In the Diné language, there are at least six genders: Asdzáán (woman), Hastiin (male), Náhleeh (feminine-man), Dilbaa (masculine-woman), Nádleeh Asdzaa (lesbian), ‘Nádleeh Hastii (gay man). All come from the Diné creation story, in which asdzáán and hastiin, a cisgender married couple, were not getting along and separated. When that happened, dilbaa and náhleeh emerged from hiding and were seen as a special group that could perform the duties of both women and men, stepping into the vacated partner roles. They were accepted by asdzáán and hastiin, who realized their survival depended on them." https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-why-are-dine-lgbtq-and-two-spirit-people-being-denied-access-to-ceremony https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-why-are-d...
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  There's the fascinating debate in Anglo-Saxon archaeology around this, too. Some "male" graves (buried with weapons, armour, etc) have female skeletons in them. And some "female" graves (pots, jewellery, broaches) have male skeletons in them. This is not disputed by anyone, the skeletal and DNA analysis is unequivocal. But all the writing we have from the period only mentions standard sex/gender roles (all warriors are "he", all primary care givers are "she", there's no mention of homosexuality, etc). However, all the written evidence we have is from christian sources, and as we know, christianity (especially catholic christianity) has been pretty pro-patriarchy since the start. So while there's no evidence for it, one explanation is that the original pagan Saxon culture had different ideas about gender and sexuality, but this got edited out by the monks transcribing the old pagan sources.
mssundaram 5y ago
Feminine beauty in Thailand allowed transgender people to have their own platform where they are able to challenge stereotypes and claim cultural recognition. Miss Tiffany's Universe is a beauty contest that is opened to all transgender women. Beginning in 1998, the pageant takes place every year in Pattaya, Thailand during May. With over 100 applicants, the pageant is considered to be one of the most popular transgender pageants in the world. Through beauty pageants, Thailand has been able to promote the country's cosmetic surgery industry, which has had a massive increase in medical tourism for sex reassignment surgery. According to the Miss Tiffany's Universe website, the live broadcast attracts record of fifteen million viewers. The winner of the pageant receives a tiara, sash, car, grand prize of 100,000 baht (US$3,000), equivalent to an annual wage for a Thai factory worker. The assistant manager director, Alisa Phanthusak, stated that the pageant wants kathoeys to be visible and to treat them as normal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey#Miss_Tiffany's_Universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey#Miss_Tiffany's_Univers...

stOneskull 5y ago

like in Samoa, they've always had the 3rd gender, Fa’afafine.

tiahura 5y ago
In Tahiti they’re Māhū or raerae.

Mediterraneo10 5y ago

It is common to hear a transwoman claim (indeed, even occasionally here on HN) that anything other than recognizing them as equal to ciswomen is an act of violence and prejudice against them, and at worst, they utter some invective about “TERFs”. So, suggesting the recognition of a new gender is unlikely to satisfy at least those strident individuals.

moeris 5y ago
Referring to trans people as "a transgender" is rude. If your other statements are as ill informed and inconsiderate, then it's no wonder your conversations with the trans community have been confrontational.
- aardvarkr 5y ago
  Anddd that’s proving his point. Assuming you’re not a troll making a satirical post, this is pretty much textbook toxic behavior. You respond with aggression when instead you could be nice. People respond with an equal and opposite reaction so when you come out swinging you lose an opportunity where you could educate them instead of spreading more hate.
  - adaml_623 5y ago
    Reminds me of a funny story where I was informed that transgendered[0] isn't a word. And in fact you can see a definition on Urban dictionary where someone has said it is "a word that doesn't exist". It turns out that while the word was once used widely it has recently become forbidden for grammatical reasons. It's not surprising this debate is so broken when basic terms aren't even constant. [0] - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgendered https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/transgendered
    - Y_Y 5y ago
      What is the shortest word that doesn't exist?
vore 5y ago
From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male. This dysphoria causes a great deal of angst and I don't think the benefits of othering them as any kind of second-class woman can outweigh that.
- mssundaram 5y ago
  I think you've quantified it as second class when it isn't actually so for kathoey or hijra
- junon 5y ago
  If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms. I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not something someone who's just trying to go about their day would even care about, let alone making a point that "hey by the way you're not biologically a woman, peace". It's such a weird argument to me. Then again, I'm a dirty "transmedicalist" as labelled by the twitter trans community, so what do I know.
  - originalvichy 5y ago
    >If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. This is really not a good analogy. An identity-linked issue like this would be closer to someone not being included into a certain in-group. For example an African-American who grows up in a predominantly caucasian could be called "not black" or "not black enough" by someone trying to hurt them based on the way they speak or act differently. You can imagine that this would be alleviated by people not putting up arbitrary rules on who "can be called black".
    - nandhinianand 5y ago
andyxor 5y ago
There is no “transwoman”, it’s a dude with mental illness
jurassic 5y ago
These aggressive activists do more to inflame anti-trans sentiment than any other. I'm fine with live and let live. Call yourself what you want, wear what you want, marry who you want -- no problem. But today's trans-activist is not satisfied with that; they also want to bully people and organizations into absurd things like having a person who lived and developed as a man for 35 years competing in strength sport against biological women. It's not safe to say in liberal workplaces anymore, but this dynamic of transwomen activists forcing their way into women's spaces is creating exactly the same dynamic as men dominating women in other areas of life. As a woman, I'm tired of it. The latest example from my life: At my company all the women's groups are being rebranded to "gender minorities" groups to accommodate the wishes of a few activists deploying the usual bully tactics. If you disagree at all, you are labeled a TERF and they try to get you fired. So who, exactly, is creating the hostile workplace?

Zababa 5y ago

I wonder about that. From what I've understood while talking to trans people and reading what they wrote (so a small sample that's probably biased), the place in the society associated with their gender (the one they transitionned into) is really important. For example, in my experience, trans women want to be recognized as women and live mostly the same as cis women. I first encountered this because I was puzzled as to why so many trans people seemed to be renforcing gender roles instead of trying to abolish them. The answer is that gender roles matter a lot to them, and fitting in matters a lot to them too. That's why I think the "third gender" solution would be really unsatisfying for most (or at least a part).

wiredone 5y ago
This may be true, however you can't have it both ways. The argument that competing in Super-Heavy weight lifting (the class that Laurel competes in) is following a general western stereotype of cis women is laughable at best. I'd argue that by standards from the last 100 years it's almost as far from it as a sport can be.
trainsplanes 5y ago
Yeah. I think for people today it's absolutely unacceptable. There's a need to fight oppression and gain acceptance. But once nobody cares anymore and nobody is bothered by the existence of trans people, I wonder if that's when it'll settle into a separate gender. Things like the issue in this topic with imbalance in sports and other areas might eventually result in another change in social structures outside of a strictly binary system.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I don't think this is about external acceptance, but more about internal acceptance. To take an extreme example: If you're suffering heavily from gender dysphoria, decide to transition to female, change absolutely nothing to your life and just try to convince yourself that you're just a women who expresses her gender differently, most of the time the dysphoria will stay here. Of course as always: there are lots of trans people and they're all individuals with their own desires and issues so this is an oversimplification. But I've been many time surprised by their desire to fit in traditional gender roles.

_tik_ 5y ago

Sad to say third/fourth gender is mostly still unacceptable in most Asian countries. Only acceptable in small part of Asians. Third/fourth gender is more acceptable in ancient Asia though. In Thailand Kathoy mostly compete in Men Category.

selimthegrim 5y ago
Have you ever been to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh?

dendrite9 5y ago

I recently learned that the Navajo historically recognized more than two genders. This article says at least 6 but initially I heard 4. It's not something I've looked into much so I can't really say. "In the Diné language, there are at least six genders: Asdzáán (woman), Hastiin (male), Náhleeh (feminine-man), Dilbaa (masculine-woman), Nádleeh Asdzaa (lesbian), ‘Nádleeh Hastii (gay man). All come from the Diné creation story, in which asdzáán and hastiin, a cisgender married couple, were not getting along and separated. When that happened, dilbaa and náhleeh emerged from hiding and were seen as a special group that could perform the duties of both women and men, stepping into the vacated partner roles. They were accepted by asdzáán and hastiin, who realized their survival depended on them." https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-why-are-dine-lgbtq-and-two-spirit-people-being-denied-access-to-ceremony https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-why-are-d...

marcus_holmes 5y ago
There's the fascinating debate in Anglo-Saxon archaeology around this, too. Some "male" graves (buried with weapons, armour, etc) have female skeletons in them. And some "female" graves (pots, jewellery, broaches) have male skeletons in them. This is not disputed by anyone, the skeletal and DNA analysis is unequivocal. But all the writing we have from the period only mentions standard sex/gender roles (all warriors are "he", all primary care givers are "she", there's no mention of homosexuality, etc). However, all the written evidence we have is from christian sources, and as we know, christianity (especially catholic christianity) has been pretty pro-patriarchy since the start. So while there's no evidence for it, one explanation is that the original pagan Saxon culture had different ideas about gender and sexuality, but this got edited out by the monks transcribing the old pagan sources.

mssundaram 5y ago

Feminine beauty in Thailand allowed transgender people to have their own platform where they are able to challenge stereotypes and claim cultural recognition. Miss Tiffany's Universe is a beauty contest that is opened to all transgender women. Beginning in 1998, the pageant takes place every year in Pattaya, Thailand during May. With over 100 applicants, the pageant is considered to be one of the most popular transgender pageants in the world. Through beauty pageants, Thailand has been able to promote the country's cosmetic surgery industry, which has had a massive increase in medical tourism for sex reassignment surgery. According to the Miss Tiffany's Universe website, the live broadcast attracts record of fifteen million viewers. The winner of the pageant receives a tiara, sash, car, grand prize of 100,000 baht (US$3,000), equivalent to an annual wage for a Thai factory worker. The assistant manager director, Alisa Phanthusak, stated that the pageant wants kathoeys to be visible and to treat them as normal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey#Miss_Tiffany's_Universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathoey#Miss_Tiffany's_Univers...