5 ms·

Twice you say that Musk is fighting the government, but he is not. Neither Space X or Tesla would exist if taxpayers weren’t giving him billions in corporate we

Twice you say that Musk is fighting the government, but he is not. Neither Space X or Tesla would exist if taxpayers weren’t giving him billions in corporate welfare.

slownews45 5y ago
In space the idea that SpaceX was the ones being subsidized vs EVERY OTHER provider is ridiculous. I mean - it's a flat lie. You need to look at what govt is paying for existing defense / industrial launches. What they spend on development. Asia / Russia / Europe and US. Atlas the govt paid $15B+ to develop and then 200M+ per launch. Most other programs have been govt funded / cost+ contracts. SLS fits this. Can you give me a specific example of the "billions" spaceX has gotten in "corporate welfare"? They are providing the deal of the century on development and ops costs, and are putting in far more private capital then most other providers as well, taking much more performance risk (ie, not all cost+ contracts) etc. The idea that this approach is somehow more costly than the pure pork style of the past is a pretty bold claim.
- luffapi 5y ago
  I did not claim Musk is alone in receiving corporate welfare. My argument is that he’s positioned to receive corporate welfare due to his being in the right place at the right time with PayPal. Plenty of other mediocre people are also receiving billions in taxpayer handouts.
  - slownews45 5y ago
    Can you give an example of the SpaceX "corporate welfare". Please be as specific as possible - that will help make this claim more understandable and we can discuss the specifics of this welfare.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      Here you go: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-201...
      - slownews45 5y ago
        For those who don't click through... There's really no detailed notes on any SpaceX subsidies. The article talkes about $1.3B Nevada provided Tesla for a battery factory in Nevada. Digging a bit deeper, you find that these are mostly tax incentives commonly used by all auto mfgs and these are not actually cash payments. Again, tesla is not unique in getting support from the govt (and likely has received relatively little over its lifetime compared to others). From 2012 https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-bankroll-corporations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-ba... From 2008: $80B bailout (not tax incentives - cash). Ridiculous FIFO inventory valuation methods allowed for tax purposes. etc. The actual incentives here are things like 10 year waiver of property taxes. That's not super uncommon if you built out somewhere that is less developed, which gigafactory nevada did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Nevada#/media/File:Tesla_Gigafactory_1_-_December_2019.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Nevada#/media/File:Tesla_... Usually corp does have to pay some user fees and covers much more onsite stuff than you would see in an urban area for example (ie, Tesla would generally need to run onsite fire protection management vs Nevada building a fire station next to factory). The idea is that after 10 years you've helped build a manufacturing base, the land and area is (much) more valuable, and long run your tax base in significantly increased. But since nothing much is there to start with you don't charge someone that much to develop it (you may even pay them in some cases though nevada may not have). Note that businesses take this same approach with each other frequently. Intel wouldn't help Apple with chip for first iphone, Samsung (ARM) did. Was a good investment for ARM.
        luffapi 5y ago
        You keep misrepresenting me and arguing with a straw man. I did not say Musk is alone in receiving corporate welfare, in fact I said there are many others receiving it as well. My point is that Musk is an example of a hyper connected individual who is able to get special handouts from the government.

Twice you say that Musk is fighting the government, but he is not. Neither Space X or Tesla would exist if taxpayers weren’t giving him billions in corporate welfare.

slownews45 5y ago

In space the idea that SpaceX was the ones being subsidized vs EVERY OTHER provider is ridiculous. I mean - it's a flat lie. You need to look at what govt is paying for existing defense / industrial launches. What they spend on development. Asia / Russia / Europe and US. Atlas the govt paid $15B+ to develop and then 200M+ per launch. Most other programs have been govt funded / cost+ contracts. SLS fits this. Can you give me a specific example of the "billions" spaceX has gotten in "corporate welfare"? They are providing the deal of the century on development and ops costs, and are putting in far more private capital then most other providers as well, taking much more performance risk (ie, not all cost+ contracts) etc. The idea that this approach is somehow more costly than the pure pork style of the past is a pretty bold claim.

luffapi 5y ago
I did not claim Musk is alone in receiving corporate welfare. My argument is that he’s positioned to receive corporate welfare due to his being in the right place at the right time with PayPal. Plenty of other mediocre people are also receiving billions in taxpayer handouts.
- slownews45 5y ago
  Can you give an example of the SpaceX "corporate welfare". Please be as specific as possible - that will help make this claim more understandable and we can discuss the specifics of this welfare.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    Here you go: https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-201...
    - slownews45 5y ago
      For those who don't click through... There's really no detailed notes on any SpaceX subsidies. The article talkes about $1.3B Nevada provided Tesla for a battery factory in Nevada. Digging a bit deeper, you find that these are mostly tax incentives commonly used by all auto mfgs and these are not actually cash payments. Again, tesla is not unique in getting support from the govt (and likely has received relatively little over its lifetime compared to others). From 2012 https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-bankroll-corporations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/us/how-local-taxpayers-ba... From 2008: $80B bailout (not tax incentives - cash). Ridiculous FIFO inventory valuation methods allowed for tax purposes. etc. The actual incentives here are things like 10 year waiver of property taxes. That's not super uncommon if you built out somewhere that is less developed, which gigafactory nevada did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Nevada#/media/File:Tesla_Gigafactory_1_-_December_2019.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giga_Nevada#/media/File:Tesla_... Usually corp does have to pay some user fees and covers much more onsite stuff than you would see in an urban area for example (ie, Tesla would generally need to run onsite fire protection management vs Nevada building a fire station next to factory). The idea is that after 10 years you've helped build a manufacturing base, the land and area is (much) more valuable, and long run your tax base in significantly increased. But since nothing much is there to start with you don't charge someone that much to develop it (you may even pay them in some cases though nevada may not have). Note that businesses take this same approach with each other frequently. Intel wouldn't help Apple with chip for first iphone, Samsung (ARM) did. Was a good investment for ARM.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        You keep misrepresenting me and arguing with a straw man. I did not say Musk is alone in receiving corporate welfare, in fact I said there are many others receiving it as well. My point is that Musk is an example of a hyper connected individual who is able to get special handouts from the government.