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The bank PIN is just a number. Your bank account balance is just a number in a database. Your private key is just a number. Your bitcoin balance is just a numbe

The bank PIN is just a number. Your bank account balance is just a number in a database. Your private key is just a number. Your bitcoin balance is just a number in a database (a blockchain is a kind of database). There is no distinction that makes stealing dollars using a bank PIN fraud but stealing bitcoin using a private key not fraud somehow.

runbathtime 5y ago
Bank deposits are securities. You have a claim on your bank when you make a deposit. If you think there is no difference between a bank account and a bitcoin private public key pair then bitcoin is a security. You are making the argument bitcoin is a security. Who is the issuer? I would say the miners are selling securities and you give them money (like a deposit) in exchange for the miners continuing to mine in the future, so when you decide to spend your bitcoin, bitcoin will still be running. If bitcoin is a security issued by the miners then yes bitcoin becomes more than just a number.
- modeless 5y ago
  If bank deposits were securities governed by securities law then they would be regulated by the SEC. They are not. It doesn't matter anyway because Bitcoin is not a bank deposit, nor is it a security. Under the law it is generally treated as property. It's still a crime to steal property. My point is that the fact that it's all numbers in a computer does not make it somehow legal to steal it. What you own is not the abstract number of your private key, but the concrete database entries in a specific blockchain database. While not relevant, it's also not even true in a pedantic sense that you "can't legally own a number". All digital files are simply long numbers, and copyright assigns ownership of those numbers to people. Also, the DeCSS case established de facto ownership of a private key, making it illegal to copy, so yes you can actually have a kind of ownership even of just a private key under the law. Again, not relevant or necessary for Bitcoin, but interesting.
  - runbathtime 5y ago
    You are incorrect. Deposits in banks are securities, I suggest you read this section titled "Every security that is issued must be held by someone until it is retired" here: https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc210614/ https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc210614/ Copyright doesn't cover the computer reference machine code number, it covers actual intellectual content. Just like it is not settled whether Ethereum or Bitcoin is a security- thoughts on this can and will change, new regulators get elected... neither is settled whether you can actually say that you own a number. The community has misplaced confidence imo.
    - modeless 5y ago
      We're talking about the law, not some guy's blog. If you believe that bank accounts and Bitcoin are securities under the law, then you are incorrect. It doesn't matter whether some guy calls bank accounts securities on his blog. That doesn't change the law. Saying the law could change is literally always true, it means nothing. Will it change? You could make an argument for Ethereum, and I tend to agree that the community is overconfident about the regulations around Ethereum and other coins. However for Bitcoin specifically the SEC has been very clear and consistent in stating that it is not and has never been a security. Their justifications are sound. So no, it almost certainly won't change for Bitcoin. Copyright covers the specific number in addition to the general intellectual content of the number. You could say it covers a family of related numbers. That's stronger than just covering a single number.
      - runbathtime 5y ago
        Here is a good article. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financialasset.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financialasset.asp Bank deposits are financial assets- which gets its value from a contractual right or ownership claim. When you deposit money in a bank, they lend that money out, they make a return, and in a sane world you would receive interest on that money. Using this definition of a financial asset, I don't think bitcoin qualifies, it is more of an intangible. It might be a financial asset only if it is held at a custodian. Congress and the courts decide what a security is, not the SEC. The SEC is the enforcement agency from what I can tell.

runbathtime 5y ago

Bank deposits are securities. You have a claim on your bank when you make a deposit. If you think there is no difference between a bank account and a bitcoin private public key pair then bitcoin is a security. You are making the argument bitcoin is a security. Who is the issuer? I would say the miners are selling securities and you give them money (like a deposit) in exchange for the miners continuing to mine in the future, so when you decide to spend your bitcoin, bitcoin will still be running. If bitcoin is a security issued by the miners then yes bitcoin becomes more than just a number.

modeless 5y ago
If bank deposits were securities governed by securities law then they would be regulated by the SEC. They are not. It doesn't matter anyway because Bitcoin is not a bank deposit, nor is it a security. Under the law it is generally treated as property. It's still a crime to steal property. My point is that the fact that it's all numbers in a computer does not make it somehow legal to steal it. What you own is not the abstract number of your private key, but the concrete database entries in a specific blockchain database. While not relevant, it's also not even true in a pedantic sense that you "can't legally own a number". All digital files are simply long numbers, and copyright assigns ownership of those numbers to people. Also, the DeCSS case established de facto ownership of a private key, making it illegal to copy, so yes you can actually have a kind of ownership even of just a private key under the law. Again, not relevant or necessary for Bitcoin, but interesting.
- runbathtime 5y ago
  You are incorrect. Deposits in banks are securities, I suggest you read this section titled "Every security that is issued must be held by someone until it is retired" here: https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc210614/ https://www.hussmanfunds.com/comment/mc210614/ Copyright doesn't cover the computer reference machine code number, it covers actual intellectual content. Just like it is not settled whether Ethereum or Bitcoin is a security- thoughts on this can and will change, new regulators get elected... neither is settled whether you can actually say that you own a number. The community has misplaced confidence imo.
  - modeless 5y ago
    We're talking about the law, not some guy's blog. If you believe that bank accounts and Bitcoin are securities under the law, then you are incorrect. It doesn't matter whether some guy calls bank accounts securities on his blog. That doesn't change the law. Saying the law could change is literally always true, it means nothing. Will it change? You could make an argument for Ethereum, and I tend to agree that the community is overconfident about the regulations around Ethereum and other coins. However for Bitcoin specifically the SEC has been very clear and consistent in stating that it is not and has never been a security. Their justifications are sound. So no, it almost certainly won't change for Bitcoin. Copyright covers the specific number in addition to the general intellectual content of the number. You could say it covers a family of related numbers. That's stronger than just covering a single number.
    - runbathtime 5y ago
      Here is a good article. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financialasset.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financialasset.asp Bank deposits are financial assets- which gets its value from a contractual right or ownership claim. When you deposit money in a bank, they lend that money out, they make a return, and in a sane world you would receive interest on that money. Using this definition of a financial asset, I don't think bitcoin qualifies, it is more of an intangible. It might be a financial asset only if it is held at a custodian. Congress and the courts decide what a security is, not the SEC. The SEC is the enforcement agency from what I can tell.