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Elsewhere on HN there's an article about how Americans no longer think hard work will lead to success. I suspect these sorts of political actions are a large p

Elsewhere on HN there's an article about how Americans no longer think hard work will lead to success. I suspect these sorts of political actions are a large part of the reason. It is just one more kick to a person who worked hard to cover their responsibilities. One more thing to make them wonder why they even try.

Spivak 5y ago
This is such an odd position. Completely seriously with no /s or irony whatsoever, why should you even try? There is no inherent piousness in hard work. I don't believe for a second that my success has anything to do with hard work. I fell into a career field that pays well and I got my opportunity by being raised by white middle-class parents. I work less hard than all of my peers while making more than them because mysterious market forces completely beyond my control. In a parallel universe the financial situations would be reversed with no change to our jobs except I would be labeled lazy.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  The entirety of democratic society is built on the belief that on average success is correlated with individual effort and output. One can argue how much or in what way. One persons result doesn't translate to another's result. Take your example, If you stopped going to work, I expect your success would probably go down. If you tried harder, your success would probably go up. If there is no correlation between work and outcomes, why ever get a job, why ever get an education, or do anything remotely challenging? I think it is crazy that people are propagating the idea that there is no advantage to self improvement, education, and trying anything.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    I actually don’t think we’re disagreeing all that much. My success is absolutely correlated to my work, but not at all how hard I work. The grind, the hustle, putting in overtime, all that BS on average gets you nowhere. You work on challenging things because it’s interesting to you, not because you’ll necessarily get paid more for it. If you work for JJ as a researcher you’re probably paid well, if your a postdoc you’re paid like shit. Same work. Being an ICU nurse is extremely challenging, but the paper pusher administrator above them will make more. Education and self-improvement on average will increase your success. Toiling away at your job 80 hours a week, working two jobs, gigging on the weekends on average won’t.

Spivak 5y ago

This is such an odd position. Completely seriously with no /s or irony whatsoever, why should you even try? There is no inherent piousness in hard work. I don't believe for a second that my success has anything to do with hard work. I fell into a career field that pays well and I got my opportunity by being raised by white middle-class parents. I work less hard than all of my peers while making more than them because mysterious market forces completely beyond my control. In a parallel universe the financial situations would be reversed with no change to our jobs except I would be labeled lazy.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
The entirety of democratic society is built on the belief that on average success is correlated with individual effort and output. One can argue how much or in what way. One persons result doesn't translate to another's result. Take your example, If you stopped going to work, I expect your success would probably go down. If you tried harder, your success would probably go up. If there is no correlation between work and outcomes, why ever get a job, why ever get an education, or do anything remotely challenging? I think it is crazy that people are propagating the idea that there is no advantage to self improvement, education, and trying anything.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I actually don’t think we’re disagreeing all that much. My success is absolutely correlated to my work, but not at all how hard I work. The grind, the hustle, putting in overtime, all that BS on average gets you nowhere. You work on challenging things because it’s interesting to you, not because you’ll necessarily get paid more for it. If you work for JJ as a researcher you’re probably paid well, if your a postdoc you’re paid like shit. Same work. Being an ICU nurse is extremely challenging, but the paper pusher administrator above them will make more. Education and self-improvement on average will increase your success. Toiling away at your job 80 hours a week, working two jobs, gigging on the weekends on average won’t.