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>I don't know how or when we lost tolerance for free speech I think you're confusing lost tolerance for free speech with 'raising the value of the speech of tr

by RC_ITR 5y ago

>I don't know how or when we lost tolerance for free speech I think you're confusing lost tolerance for free speech with 'raising the value of the speech of traditionally marginalized groups.' A man at Atari in 1976 who argues women are worse engineers than men mostly broadcasts to an audience of empowered men and disempowered women. So his 'free speech' is respected while those women's is not. A man at Google in 2018 who argues the same thing has to deal with the consequences of women's speech, but to him, that feels like a chilling of his free speech. I'm fine that we are in scenario 2, having listened to a lot of other ill-informed white men give heir 'opinion' on things for no true reason.

btilly 5y ago
Honest question. Have you ever actually read the memo? If you have, please tell me what passage makes you think that it says that women are worse engineers than men. Because as far as I can tell, there are none. The topic at hand is controversial enough WITHOUT making up stuff about what was said.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Honest question, have you? >humans are generally biased towards protecting females. >These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics >This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. >Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average I think the disconnect here is that the author is couching his claims with strawmen 'women prefer' and links to small-n surveys that you find sufficient (but most do not). Maybe if we refactored some of what he said, it would make sense: > people who excel at math are generally biased toward being short and unfriendly. >These two differences in part explain why STEM students relatively prefer working long-hours and avoiding meaningful human connection. More liberal arts students may like socializing because it requires EQ and even within startups, comparatively more PMs and SDRs have significant others. >This leads to engineers generally having a harder time receiving criticism, asking for help, staying out of others business, and collaborating. >Engineers on average look for peer praise while SDRs have a higher drive for wealth accumulation.
  - Igelau 5y ago
    Nothing you've quoted says that the author thinks women make worse engineers, only that people are different. If you think it says something else, you should search within to find out where you generated that meaning.
    - RC_ITR 5y ago
      You think saying that women have a harder time speaking up and leading has nothing to do with engineering? Where exactly have you worked as an engineer where leadership didn't matter and people weren't encouraged to speak up? EDIT: To be clear about the point here, none of these claims are sourced! He's just insulting women in 'kind-sounding' language! I think women are very unprotected in modern society! I think women LOVE systemization! The insult is the unsourced claim!
cnwq 5y ago
LOL, disempowered women in 1976. The real student revolts took place in 1968-1970 and produced hippies, free love, another instance of feminism (second wave I believe). It was probably a better time for being a woman in CS than now, with disingenuous bros paying lip service to SJW causes in order to keep their > 250,000 salaries while not having a clue.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  I am not going to post the picture of the Atari 'meeting in a hot tub,' but you can Google if you want. Thanks for the snapshot of your thinking though, helpful context for the post.

by RC_ITR 5y ago

btilly 5y ago

Honest question. Have you ever actually read the memo? If you have, please tell me what passage makes you think that it says that women are worse engineers than men. Because as far as I can tell, there are none. The topic at hand is controversial enough WITHOUT making up stuff about what was said.

RC_ITR 5y ago
Honest question, have you? >humans are generally biased towards protecting females. >These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics >This leads to women generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading. >Women on average look for more work-life balance while men have a higher drive for status on average I think the disconnect here is that the author is couching his claims with strawmen 'women prefer' and links to small-n surveys that you find sufficient (but most do not). Maybe if we refactored some of what he said, it would make sense: > people who excel at math are generally biased toward being short and unfriendly. >These two differences in part explain why STEM students relatively prefer working long-hours and avoiding meaningful human connection. More liberal arts students may like socializing because it requires EQ and even within startups, comparatively more PMs and SDRs have significant others. >This leads to engineers generally having a harder time receiving criticism, asking for help, staying out of others business, and collaborating. >Engineers on average look for peer praise while SDRs have a higher drive for wealth accumulation.
- Igelau 5y ago
  Nothing you've quoted says that the author thinks women make worse engineers, only that people are different. If you think it says something else, you should search within to find out where you generated that meaning.
  - RC_ITR 5y ago
    You think saying that women have a harder time speaking up and leading has nothing to do with engineering? Where exactly have you worked as an engineer where leadership didn't matter and people weren't encouraged to speak up? EDIT: To be clear about the point here, none of these claims are sourced! He's just insulting women in 'kind-sounding' language! I think women are very unprotected in modern society! I think women LOVE systemization! The insult is the unsourced claim!

cnwq 5y ago

LOL, disempowered women in 1976. The real student revolts took place in 1968-1970 and produced hippies, free love, another instance of feminism (second wave I believe). It was probably a better time for being a woman in CS than now, with disingenuous bros paying lip service to SJW causes in order to keep their > 250,000 salaries while not having a clue.

RC_ITR 5y ago
I am not going to post the picture of the Atari 'meeting in a hot tub,' but you can Google if you want. Thanks for the snapshot of your thinking though, helpful context for the post.