5 ms·

This seems to be combining a couple of studies; the primary one seems to be 40 people over 6 weeks using the petals of saffron (but in another place said "leave

by chrisa 5y ago

This seems to be combining a couple of studies; the primary one seems to be 40 people over 6 weeks using the petals of saffron (but in another place said "leaves", so I'm not sure which is correct), but it's interesting that the petals have the effect and not just the stigma which is what is called "saffron" for cooking They also mentioned that it _might_ work by affecting serotonin in the brain, but no one actually knows yet; and in the conclusion they mention how this is only a first step at understanding the effects. So: looks kind of promising, but by no means a finished study yet. (also there were warnings about taking too much as it can be toxic and damaging for pregnancy so... read that carefully before buying some I suppose :) )

bigmattystyles 5y ago
>> They also mentioned that it _might_ work by affecting serotonin in the brain, but no one actually knows yet; I don't even think we know with regards to any substance, i.e even why SSRI work - I think we have some good hypothesis, but nothing conclusive. I've even seen an ad on CNN for tardive dyskinesia that says 'the <drug> is thought to do something to dopamine' - Doesn't exactly inspire confidence but having suffered from mental conditions, I'd still be willing to try it.
- chrisa 5y ago
  Yes, that's true; like you say, no one even quite knows how SSRIs work, so this looks promising! Hopefully future studies show similar effects without some of the SSRI side effects
- defaultname 5y ago
  As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it is thought to work by inhibiting serotonin reuptake...maybe. There isn't even strong proof that serotonin plays the part popularly believed. But SSRIs work for many people, and do seem to have an effect, so the theoretical is good enough for now.
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it is thought to work by inhibiting serotonin reuptake...maybe. There isn't even strong proof that serotonin plays the part popularly believed. The "chemical imbalance" theory hasn't been taken seriously for decades. It's a myth that psychiatrists think that SSRIs are compensating for low serotonin. We've known for a long time that the actual anti-depressant effects come from somewhere downstream that isn't fully understood yet. This isn't really a new discovery. We've known from the start that SSRIs inhibit serotonin reuptake within hours of taking the first dose, but the full antidepressant effect can lag by weeks. That doesn't mean that serotonin isn't involved in the therapeutic action of SSRIs, though. Occupying around 80% of the serotonin transporters is necessary to bring about the antidepressant effects of different SSRIs. So we do know that inhibiting serotonin reuptake is almost certainly the mechanism that kicks off the chain of events that ultimately produces the antidepressant effect, but we also know that the antidepressant effect doesn't come directly from this inhibition. This is a good article that explains debunks the myth that psychiatry believes the "chemical imbalance" or "low serotonin" theories: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-chemical-imbalance-myths-again https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-chemical...
  - throayobviousl 5y ago
    Because SSRIs take weeks to work, it is theorized that they actual modify DNA expression and other things that are slow to action. Serotonin itself has little to do with depression at the synaptic level
- The_rationalist 5y ago
  Don't disregard scientific knowledge like that. Many (albeit not all) drugs have been extensively tested at least by close to exhaustively testing receptor binding sensitivity. Except for the extremely rare drugs that have very atypical action mechanism it allows to understand to a decent extent what it does pharmacologically. But also, understanding how a drug work isn't necessary for taking the risk of trying it given that most CNS (except DRA) drugs are "safe" especially if combined with potent neuroprotectors (anti oxidants, NMDA antagonists, etc) However even if the risk is low, I don't understand your motive to try it. The only one would be to advance scientific knowledge by self testing. But if the motive is for egoistic and not altruistic then there are much more proved antidepressants out there with small side effect profiles.
  - bigmattystyles 5y ago
    Oh - I muddled my phrasing - I agree with you, I was saying I would try a medication with historical, industry and regulatory backing even if we didn't understand exactly how it worked - not the saffron. That being said, I'm now planning to make paella...
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    why aren't DRA safe?
    - The_rationalist 5y ago
      Well it was a simplification. I know that many dopamine releasing agents are safe, such as amantadine. However when a drug is a DRA + a dopamine reuptake inhibitor or worse reverse the transport of dopamin reuptake through TRAAR and / or is a dopamin agonist then there is a risk of neurotoxicity and of durably lowering dopamin receptor density in the brain. This also apply for other monoamines but to a lesser extent. Most of drugs that have this combination of action are https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_phenethylamine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_phenethylamine Some are safe such as D-amphetamine (Adderall, Vyvanse) but most have an unknown risk. Note that you can regrow lost receptors to some extent with e.g Uridine.
LatteLazy 5y ago
You'd be amazed how little extra effort goes into pharmaceutical studies for antidepressants. They're mostly n<1k people, under 6months long, with no mechanism firmly established...

by chrisa 5y ago

bigmattystyles 5y ago

>> They also mentioned that it _might_ work by affecting serotonin in the brain, but no one actually knows yet; I don't even think we know with regards to any substance, i.e even why SSRI work - I think we have some good hypothesis, but nothing conclusive. I've even seen an ad on CNN for tardive dyskinesia that says 'the <drug> is thought to do something to dopamine' - Doesn't exactly inspire confidence but having suffered from mental conditions, I'd still be willing to try it.

chrisa 5y ago
Yes, that's true; like you say, no one even quite knows how SSRIs work, so this looks promising! Hopefully future studies show similar effects without some of the SSRI side effects
defaultname 5y ago
As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it is thought to work by inhibiting serotonin reuptake...maybe. There isn't even strong proof that serotonin plays the part popularly believed. But SSRIs work for many people, and do seem to have an effect, so the theoretical is good enough for now.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > As you mention, most SSRI ads specifically note that it is thought to work by inhibiting serotonin reuptake...maybe. There isn't even strong proof that serotonin plays the part popularly believed. The "chemical imbalance" theory hasn't been taken seriously for decades. It's a myth that psychiatrists think that SSRIs are compensating for low serotonin. We've known for a long time that the actual anti-depressant effects come from somewhere downstream that isn't fully understood yet. This isn't really a new discovery. We've known from the start that SSRIs inhibit serotonin reuptake within hours of taking the first dose, but the full antidepressant effect can lag by weeks. That doesn't mean that serotonin isn't involved in the therapeutic action of SSRIs, though. Occupying around 80% of the serotonin transporters is necessary to bring about the antidepressant effects of different SSRIs. So we do know that inhibiting serotonin reuptake is almost certainly the mechanism that kicks off the chain of events that ultimately produces the antidepressant effect, but we also know that the antidepressant effect doesn't come directly from this inhibition. This is a good article that explains debunks the myth that psychiatry believes the "chemical imbalance" or "low serotonin" theories: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-chemical-imbalance-myths-again https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/debunking-two-chemical...
- throayobviousl 5y ago
  Because SSRIs take weeks to work, it is theorized that they actual modify DNA expression and other things that are slow to action. Serotonin itself has little to do with depression at the synaptic level
The_rationalist 5y ago
Don't disregard scientific knowledge like that. Many (albeit not all) drugs have been extensively tested at least by close to exhaustively testing receptor binding sensitivity. Except for the extremely rare drugs that have very atypical action mechanism it allows to understand to a decent extent what it does pharmacologically. But also, understanding how a drug work isn't necessary for taking the risk of trying it given that most CNS (except DRA) drugs are "safe" especially if combined with potent neuroprotectors (anti oxidants, NMDA antagonists, etc) However even if the risk is low, I don't understand your motive to try it. The only one would be to advance scientific knowledge by self testing. But if the motive is for egoistic and not altruistic then there are much more proved antidepressants out there with small side effect profiles.
- bigmattystyles 5y ago
  Oh - I muddled my phrasing - I agree with you, I was saying I would try a medication with historical, industry and regulatory backing even if we didn't understand exactly how it worked - not the saffron. That being said, I'm now planning to make paella...
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  why aren't DRA safe?
  - The_rationalist 5y ago
    Well it was a simplification. I know that many dopamine releasing agents are safe, such as amantadine. However when a drug is a DRA + a dopamine reuptake inhibitor or worse reverse the transport of dopamin reuptake through TRAAR and / or is a dopamin agonist then there is a risk of neurotoxicity and of durably lowering dopamin receptor density in the brain. This also apply for other monoamines but to a lesser extent. Most of drugs that have this combination of action are https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_phenethylamine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substituted_phenethylamine Some are safe such as D-amphetamine (Adderall, Vyvanse) but most have an unknown risk. Note that you can regrow lost receptors to some extent with e.g Uridine.

LatteLazy 5y ago

You'd be amazed how little extra effort goes into pharmaceutical studies for antidepressants. They're mostly n<1k people, under 6months long, with no mechanism firmly established...