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In Step 1, he explains how to create a cryptographic identity- the private public key pair. I came across an argument that a number cannot be property or owned

In Step 1, he explains how to create a cryptographic identity- the private public key pair. I came across an argument that a number cannot be property or owned because you can't legally own a number. If this is true then you can't own UTXOs associated with a private key or a cryptographic identity. I do think that bitcoin is fundamentally too complicated to understand, mathematically, for most people- myself included. I would argue everyone needs to do this exercise, from scratch, and also understand what they are doing (the math), to have confidence in bitcoin payment network. Anyone who thinks you don't need to get it is most likely in it for speculation alone. With something so abstract like bitcoin, it has a much larger uphill battle for understanding than a physical commodity like Gold, the precursor of paper dollars.

modeless 5y ago
You don't own the number that is your private key, just as you don't own the number that is your bank account PIN or balance. What you own is space on the blockchain. And just as you don't need to tour the mint to have confidence in the dollar, or implement Diffie-Hellman to have confidence in your TLS connection to Amazon, you don't need to understand elliptic curve cryptography to have faith in Bitcoin.
- runbathtime 5y ago
  A bank account balance is representative value of dollars that bank owes you. If someone tries to steal it by pretending to be you even if they just steal your PIN, they are committing fraud. If someone steals a private key by committing another crime like stealing a laptop, that is a crime because you own the laptop. If they learn of your private key without committing a crime, that is not theft. You don't own 'space on the blockchain.' I have no idea what that even means. You do need to understand elliptic curve cryptography to have confidence (not faith) in bitcoin because you make the transactions in bitcoin. You are responsible, not some third party. People understand the dollar because it is physical and you can get them on demand and they originally got their value from Gold, not some abstraction like proof of spent energy one time awhile back.
  - modeless 5y ago
    The bank PIN is just a number. Your bank account balance is just a number in a database. Your private key is just a number. Your bitcoin balance is just a number in a database (a blockchain is a kind of database). There is no distinction that makes stealing dollars using a bank PIN fraud but stealing bitcoin using a private key not fraud somehow.
    - runbathtime 5y ago
      Bank deposits are securities. You have a claim on your bank when you make a deposit. If you think there is no difference between a bank account and a bitcoin private public key pair then bitcoin is a security. You are making the argument bitcoin is a security. Who is the issuer? I would say the miners are selling securities and you give them money (like a deposit) in exchange for the miners continuing to mine in the future, so when you decide to spend your bitcoin, bitcoin will still be running. If bitcoin is a security issued by the miners then yes bitcoin becomes more than just a number.
      - modeless 5y ago
        If bank deposits were securities governed by securities law then they would be regulated by the SEC. They are not. It doesn't matter anyway because Bitcoin is not a bank deposit, nor is it a security. Under the law it is generally treated as property. It's still a crime to steal property. My point is that the fact that it's all numbers in a computer does not make it somehow legal to steal it. What you own is not the abstract number of your private key, but the concrete database entries in a specific blockchain database. While not relevant, it's also not even true in a pedantic sense that you "can't legally own a number". All digital files are simply long numbers, and copyright assigns ownership of those numbers to people. Also, the DeCSS case established de facto ownership of a private key, making it illegal to copy, so yes you can actually have a kind of ownership even of just a private key under the law. Again, not relevant or necessary for Bitcoin, but interesting.
        runbathtime 5y ago

modeless 5y ago

You don't own the number that is your private key, just as you don't own the number that is your bank account PIN or balance. What you own is space on the blockchain. And just as you don't need to tour the mint to have confidence in the dollar, or implement Diffie-Hellman to have confidence in your TLS connection to Amazon, you don't need to understand elliptic curve cryptography to have faith in Bitcoin.

runbathtime 5y ago
A bank account balance is representative value of dollars that bank owes you. If someone tries to steal it by pretending to be you even if they just steal your PIN, they are committing fraud. If someone steals a private key by committing another crime like stealing a laptop, that is a crime because you own the laptop. If they learn of your private key without committing a crime, that is not theft. You don't own 'space on the blockchain.' I have no idea what that even means. You do need to understand elliptic curve cryptography to have confidence (not faith) in bitcoin because you make the transactions in bitcoin. You are responsible, not some third party. People understand the dollar because it is physical and you can get them on demand and they originally got their value from Gold, not some abstraction like proof of spent energy one time awhile back.
- modeless 5y ago
  The bank PIN is just a number. Your bank account balance is just a number in a database. Your private key is just a number. Your bitcoin balance is just a number in a database (a blockchain is a kind of database). There is no distinction that makes stealing dollars using a bank PIN fraud but stealing bitcoin using a private key not fraud somehow.
  - runbathtime 5y ago
    Bank deposits are securities. You have a claim on your bank when you make a deposit. If you think there is no difference between a bank account and a bitcoin private public key pair then bitcoin is a security. You are making the argument bitcoin is a security. Who is the issuer? I would say the miners are selling securities and you give them money (like a deposit) in exchange for the miners continuing to mine in the future, so when you decide to spend your bitcoin, bitcoin will still be running. If bitcoin is a security issued by the miners then yes bitcoin becomes more than just a number.
    - modeless 5y ago
      If bank deposits were securities governed by securities law then they would be regulated by the SEC. They are not. It doesn't matter anyway because Bitcoin is not a bank deposit, nor is it a security. Under the law it is generally treated as property. It's still a crime to steal property. My point is that the fact that it's all numbers in a computer does not make it somehow legal to steal it. What you own is not the abstract number of your private key, but the concrete database entries in a specific blockchain database. While not relevant, it's also not even true in a pedantic sense that you "can't legally own a number". All digital files are simply long numbers, and copyright assigns ownership of those numbers to people. Also, the DeCSS case established de facto ownership of a private key, making it illegal to copy, so yes you can actually have a kind of ownership even of just a private key under the law. Again, not relevant or necessary for Bitcoin, but interesting.
      - runbathtime 5y ago