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There's a lot of good content in this article focused on the media. The media is highly visible and well-documented, so it makes sense. I'd like to see more c
by nostromo 5y ago
There's a lot of good content in this article focused on the media. The media is highly visible and well-documented, so it makes sense.
I'd like to see more content about indoctrination and propaganda happening in US education. This to me is much more insidious as it takes an impressionable populace (kids and young adults) and provides an authority figure (teachers and professors) that are largely hidden from public view and gives them a lot of room to provide whatever narrative they like about politics, history, or just about any subject.
The impact of shouting matches happening on cable news and Twitter seem like a rounding error compared to the decades-long indoctrination that happens during one's education.
- lupire 5y agoDo private schools not have propaganda? Student have over a dozen teachers over the course of education. If they "provide whatever narrative they like " it seems students would get a diverse range of perspectives. Not to mention all the perspectives they get from other authorities like their churches, clubs, family members, and... every adult they encounter, and every book too.
- benjohnson 5y agoYes. Private school do have 'propaganda' - but that's perfectly ok if it aligns with the parent's wishes. As the parents, we have the right to chose how our children are raised.
- reedjosh 5y ago> As the parents, we have the right to chose how our children are raised. Downvoted for raising your children as you'd like. Lol, that's HN for ya.
- HWR_14 5y agoChildren aren't property. It's perfectly reasonable for society to take children away from parents. We do it for various forms of abuse. We obviously want to be careful, but I see no reason to allow 14-year-olds to get married off by their parents to adult men in their cult. Nor do I think it's okay to change that to the parents let their 14-year-olds get groomed for 4 years either.
- Fellshard 5y ago> It's perfectly reasonable for society to take children away from parents. The way you state this makes it sound like this should be the /norm/, though, as opposed to only being applied in concrete exigent circumstances such as the ones you name.
- Ensorceled 5y agoWhile it is not the /norm/, it is quite common: almost 150K children are removed from their parents and put into foster care a year. Exigent circumstances happen quite a lot.
- Fellshard 5y agoWhat's that look like per capita? That's still an extraordinarily small minority.
- Ensorceled 5y agoThere are about 74 million children in the US and about 450K of them are in foster care and at least as many more have been moved to relatives by CPS (grandparents, aunts/uncles, older siblings etc.) So well over 1% maybe as high as 2% ... not an extraordinarily small minority.
- reedjosh 5y agoOkay, but if they send their children to christian school (I'm actually not religious myself), is that too much indoctrination for you, or is it okay for people to raise their children with their own views and culture?
- sudosysgen 5y agoI personally think that all children should be raised under a common, secular curriculum. Then people can send their children to Sunday school or communicate their religious/political values.
- Broken_Hippo 5y agoI don't know. Sure, you are raising your kids, but they are going to be adults, some with kids, some without - and that is going to require some information. I think it is a grave injustice to children to, for example, not introduce them to a variety of religions so that they can better understand folks they might run into. Same for not having comprehensive sex education: It matters little to me that a parent thinks some sex - or birth control - is a sin: The child still needs to learn about it so that they can make good decisions even if it goes against the parents' beliefs. Some parents want girls to just learn to cook and clean, and demand an emphasis on such classes. And so on. I'm not convinced it is entirely your right to do as you please with your children: To me, it is only OK so long it is healthy for the child and doesn't infringe on their rights... which they should have, and the US refuses to give.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- stronglikedan 5y agoThey do, but the parents have more of a say, since they're paying for it. And, since they can afford it, they have a choice of schools should their complaints fall on deaf ears.
- akiselev 5y agoMost private schools - in the US at least - are religious, so I'd argue they're peddling propaganda as a matter of course (though not all such schools require students to participate in the propagandization).
- colordrops 5y agoThe private schools in Los Angeles definitely push political agendas.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- boomboomsubban 5y agoMost private schools are still required to follow a state mandated curriculum in many areas, and are still hiring from the same pool of indoctrinated teachers. You could make a propaganda light private school, but that would need to be your explicit goal. Sure, children will encounter a diverse range of ideas. Schooling dominates in time spent with, and it is the one most likely to reward or punish a child for regurgitating an ideology.
- josefresco 5y ago> The media is highly visible and well-documented Sort of. Social media feeds and ads are ephemeral and customized to the specific user. This makes transparency hard, unless the network provides access.
- colordrops 5y agoThe worst kind of propaganda is that which makes certain topics taboo, regardless of merit. For instance, if your idea that propaganda is pushed in schools gains traction among the populace, the idea would then be associated with the "other side", either liberals or conservatives in our case, and would then mark you as being on the wrong team. Its a pernicious form of propaganda that has escalated with the last presidential election. EDIT: curious about the opinions of anyone who down voted this.
- nescioquid 5y agoSusan Jacoby[1] made the case that the lack of a federal/national education system (the constitution makes it a state responsibility) historically results from Americans' fears of indoctrination by such an education system -- specifically that their children would not be properly indoctrinated into their religion, or worse, be indoctrinated into someone else's religion. [1] Age of American Unreason
- HWR_14 5y agoThat's strange. There's no federal system because of 9th amendment issues. And there was no federal right in the original constitution because universal education is a fairly new concept.
- seventytwo 5y agoYou mean like how we’ve systematically failed to teach children about the racism, slavery, and hatred that has been ubiquitous in American history? Or how about teaching American exceptionalism? Or that capitalism is better than socialism? Or that being religious is better than being non-religious? Or that being unquestionably patriotic is better than questioning your country’s actions? There’s tons and tons of indoctrination in public schools, but it’s mostly to maintain existing power structures and the status quo.
- francisofascii 5y agoWhat some educational systems are missing is a class on how to identify propaganda, just like this blog post. Sometimes this is covered in a logic course that covers logical reasoning, logical fallacies, etc. How these techniques are used in advertising, news stories, etc.
- jhabdas 5y agoPhilosophy and sociology should be moved earlier in the curriculum. I gained much from studying Descartes and Bertrand Russell, and learning propositional logic. The school system did not teach me those things until after I graduated high school. Had those teachings come earlier I may not have been as susceptible to propaganda at such a young age as I was.
- bosswipe 5y agoThe bigger concern is that professional educators are being overruled by politicians about what is in the curriculum. Such as the recent wave of anti-Critical Race Theories laws being handed down because of a panic created by right-wing media.
- temp8964 5y agoNo. The panic is not created by the media. I don't want my kids to be taught how White people are racists, or "people of color" are oppressed. Even I am not a White.
- wolverine876 5y ago> indoctrination and propaganda happening in US education What evidence do you have that it is happening and on what scale? My teachers, all that I recall, never presented any opinion or perspective as truth. It was always about thinking critically for ourselves. If, for example, they presented a well-established view on the sinking of the Maine, it was as material for our analysis and evaluation.
- sreque 5y agoThe evidence that radicals have already successfully overtaken Western universities is overwhelming, and the evidence that these radicals are in the process of taking over secondary education is also readily available for anyone who is interested. If you are actually looking for some eyewitness accounts, Jordan Peterson has many podcasts where he interviews specific people that have experienced the ideological takeover themselves, including: * Yeonmi Park: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yqa-SdJtT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yqa-SdJtT4 * Dr. Rima Azar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIw8mH7ZpFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIw8mH7ZpFY * Bret Weinstein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O_gW4VWZ5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O_gW4VWZ5c He has also interviewed one person who lost his job fighting the takeover in high school: * Paul Rossi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQBegyQP8A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQBegyQP8A He's also interviewed a self-identified liberal and former employee of New York Times that witnessed the takeover at the Times. Starting at minute 8 the conversation diverges into talking about her experience at University. * Bari Weiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFTA9MJZ4KY&t=12s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFTA9MJZ4KY&t=12s Bari Weiss says it herself in this podcast, loosely quoted since I don't remember it exactly: If you as a liberal can't see the danger in what is happening, then you have your blinders on. I would say the same holds true of people who can't see the takeover in education, which is already mostly complete. Edit: I found the Bari Weiss quote at 43:06: "I have to be honest. At this point, if one can't see the way that this language has been hijacked and used as a kind of trojan horse strategy to smuggle in a hardened, zero-sum identity politics view of the world, to smuggle in a view of the world in which we have collective guilt or collective innocence literally based on the circumstances of our birth, that smuggle in a deeply anti-capitalist position, to smuggle in essentially a leftist illiberalism, then, I'm sorry. You have blinders on! The evidence is so overwhelming at this point.... I think it's because admitting that's true, is extremely psychologically scary, and socially scary, if you are a liberal."
- NortySpock 5y agoSo, the American Civil Religion? Dangerous History Podcast with Prof CJ https://profcj.org/ep124/ https://profcj.org/ep124/ "Ever get the sense that the government and politics in the United States is kinda cult-y? If so, CJ thinks your spidey sense is justifiably tingling, and what you’re picking up on is the phenomenon known as the civil religion. Join CJ as he discusses: The concept of civil religion The origins of the American civil religion, and a brief word on the scholarship on the concept Some of the overtly religious elements that can be found in American government and politics, including: dogmas, rituals, sacred texts, holy places, sermons, sacrifices, sacred days, spells/mantras/incantations/prayers, music, sacred histories/narratives, temples, symbols/totems, priests, and saints The ways in which people of different cultural and ideological predilections can — just like with conventional religion — interpret the civil religion in order to make it fit their preferences How voting fits into this civil religion, and why CJ thinks a reasonable person should reject the civil religion — whether they are theists or not
- refurb 5y agoI think that Prof just described every human civilization that ever existed?
- flippinburgers 5y agoCritical Race Theory as I have read about it being applied in schools teaches youth that they are inherently racist (note this is only taught to the white children) and that the minorities get to share their anecdotal, lived experience while the white students stand by and are not permitted to say anything. I find the entire formula to be a groundwork for severe social damage. It certainly does not build bridges. Nor does it pave the way towards compassion and understanding.
- cbsmith 5y agoYeah, that's not what Critical Race Theory is or how it could be applied to schools. The irony of you bringing this up in the context of propaganda is amusing. There's a good short interview NPR did today with Gloria Ladson-Billings, who has been working on applying critical race theory for education policy for over a couple of decades: https://www.npr.org/2021/06/22/1009182206/academic-who-brought-critical-race-theory-to-education-says-bills-are-misguided https://www.npr.org/2021/06/22/1009182206/academic-who-broug... Be careful out there. There's a lot of propaganda out there.
- esyir 5y agoHaving seen the media about crt, as well as the way it's applied and the attitudes of its adherents, its pretty close to the truth. And its hard to argue with the result. Whatever is going on, that particular strain of "crt" is virulently spreading.
- cbsmith 5y ago"The media about crt" s/media/propaganda/ Keep in mind you're being fed a narrative. CRT has been around for decades, and isn't something you can apply in a grade school curriculum (as Gloria Ladson-Billings said, it isn't something you teach in undergrad at college... it's a subject for post graduate study/research). There's a reason you're hearing about this now.
- esyir 5y ago
- kevando 5y ago100% i think it was peter thiel who i heard say something to the effect of “if 90% of the most recent supreme court justices went to hardvard/yale, you have to ask yourself what are they teaching there?” and on the other side, i witnessed what the chicago public school system says to the kids (remote learning) and holy shit. it was like something from 1984. gotta start preparing us to not own anything and like it some time…..