7 ms·

My main question for this app is how they are going to deal with the many conflicting interpretations of the Bible. Who decides which interpretation is shown by

My main question for this app is how they are going to deal with the many conflicting interpretations of the Bible. Who decides which interpretation is shown by default or the order? For example, the pro-LGBT and anti-LGBT churches have drastically different views of many verses.

theoblank 5y ago
Definitely an important question. In an ideal world, I believe people would want to explore and learn from viewpoints that differ from their own (after all, how else can you learn?). But, of course people tend to be very embattled on issues like these and shy away from anything that sounds different than what they already believe. One idea I have is to use a ML recommendation model that would use theological preferences as inputs. The trick would be how to personalize that model for a given user before knowing what content they want or would be put off by. Perhaps that could be part of the onboarding process though.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  There is no need for ML here. The app can simply ask for the name of the person's church.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    And if the name is "Johnsonville Presbyterian Church" then what?
    - amerine 5y ago
      Seems pretty easy, https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-presbyterian-church-usa https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issu..., most major denominations are open about their stances on LGBTQ things.
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        Church name doesn't tell you the denomination. Do you know how many presbyterian denominations there are in the US alone? Most of them are probably completely the opposite of the PC(USA) on those particular issues the HRC cares to discuss at all.
      - calvinmorrison 5y ago
        That tells you about PC USA. Which is a historical mainline liberal presbytery in the US. It doesn't tell you in the last 5 years a good number of individual congregations have left because of this very issue and emigrated to the EPC or other slightly 'less' liberal denominations. Or that PCUSA has been hemmoraging numbers for a long time. Or the PCUSA has often been thought of as a big umbrella denoms that has in the past allowed individual prebyterys (regionally) to have differing rules. Or that presbyteries are not like catholic churches or anglican ones! There are no priests or higher authorities! Each presby congregation is made up of members, who elect elders, who then visit their local presbytery (the regional org) to vote on matters. Most importantly, it misses the fact, that Presbyterian is an anagram for Britney Spears
        sudosteph 5y ago
        You know, I thought I already knew everything you were saying... but I'm really glad I read until the end.
        tptacek 5y ago
        You mean "Presbyterians", right?
    - goldemerald 5y ago
      They will have no free will but to accept the recommendations given to them. But seriously, most churches belong to a denomination. And practically all denominations have a specific alignment on every theological issue you can imagine. In any case, you could simply go with reformed theology beliefs and that'll work for most users.
      - brightball 5y ago
        I hope other people got the chuckle out of your comment that I did.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > And practically all denominations have a specific alignment on every theological issue you can imagine. That's...not particularly true, especially for the denominations that are both large and institutionally old, or are newer but less centrally authoritarian. The Roman Catholic Church (for an example in the former category) for instance, has a small number of declared-as-infallible dogmas, a larger number of doctrines that arr understood to be certain or argued to have been infallibly declared, a wide space of broadly accepted doctrine about which there is still debate which is recognized as legitimate and not dissent, and plenty of open theological questions, more of which are added all the time, because changing circumstances raise new questions not previously considered, and change the factual context of previous considerations so that, even for doctrines that are solid, what piece of the prior articulation is the actual doctrine and what piece reflects the limitations of the context considered at the earlier time must be discerned, and is often actively debated.
        gerdesj 5y ago
        "has a small number of declared-as-infallible dogmas" There's rather more to it in general but the concept of dogma is one of the reasons that many Christian denominations exist - in protest of the notion of dogma. For example: Papal Infallibility. The dogma of Papal Infallibility is that God created the post of Pope and inaugurated St Peter as the first one. God created the papacy for His purposes therefore holders of that role cannot be fallible. However, the Pope is a man (why can't Papa be Mum?) and I'm pretty sure that involves being a sinner. It takes some pretty fancy footwork to elevate a bloke who was a mere automatically sinning Cardinal into an Infallible Pope. For me the whole crux (if you like) of Christianity is that the ultimate divine being became a person and suffered as such - if you like: They experienced Their creation first hand. I don't think you should go around elevating people into little or demi Gods - that's a form of polytheism. Funnily enough I'm declaring my own form of dogma: People are not infallible: Pope, Queen, nor gerdesj. I do understand the Catholic concept of dogma and even why it still exists. It is not my point to belittle it either but there is quite a good reason why: "practically all denominations have a specific alignment." Those people find the concept of dogma and the like ... sometimes unsatisfactory.
  - microtherion 5y ago
    I'm sure Emo Philips could design an UX for that.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  My advice? Don't filter bubble. Instead, just write “disputed”, with a link that goes into detail as to what various people think, and why.
  - aae42 5y ago
    Literally every view on there would end up marked "disputed"
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      Not every view. Some of them have an obvious, indisputable truth value – like “the start of Genesis 2 is just an out-of-order version of Genesis 1” (something I used to think until I looked at an untranslated version – it's obviously wrong, and only the specific word choice of a specific English translation suggests it could be right).
  - highmastdon 5y ago
    This would be great. It’s about the way the Talmud is structured. Every piece has multiple interpretations and they’re written together and can be discussed an though about
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Showing people only a small view of a bigger complex issue is def not the way to go - especially when things like human rights are involved.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  > One idea I have is to use a ML recommendation model that would use theological preferences as inputs. Please don't. If I want machine learning based AI augmented recommendations, that's literally the entire internet at this point outside a few niche circles. A Bible app does not need to go down that path.
- ngngngng 5y ago
  Does this app include teachings from Latter-day Saint theologians? While I'm interested in this, typically my faith is excluded from these sorts of projects, and often it doesn't take long when I dive into "mainstream" christian communities to come across hostility towards my faith or non trinitarian views.
  - ybbond 5y ago
    I also have difficulties to find good iOS app for Catholic. Nah. It's very hard for me to find any downloadable version of Catholic publications. Anyway, that's too bad that you received that hostility. I have 2 mormon friends in my high school. They are chill and fun to hang-out with. They often invited me to join their church, but I can reject without making it a big issue.
    - wonderinglife 5y ago
      Hey, you might like to try get.catenabible.com - we have a large catholic, orthodox, and protestant user base interested in understanding Christianity from the early Christian interpretation. Hope you find it helpful, God bless!
  - wyclif 5y ago
    No, it's a Christian app, so no Mormon content.
    - euthymiclabs 5y ago
      More accurately, I might say it's a protestant Christian app, whereas Mormonism considers itself restoration Christianity and may not fit as well here.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  This is pretty blatantly against what disciples taught.
  - brightball 5y ago
    2 Timothy 4:3-4 pretty much covers this head on. Teaching that you want to hear essentially.
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      It's a spectrum. On one end you can just find someone to teach and validate all your existing beliefs. On the other, you can blindly follow religious leaders verbatim; all the way into a cult, Southern Baptist approval of slavery, or Catholic indulgences.
      - andrewmcwatters 5y ago
        This is just handwaving.
- OxO4 5y ago
  Can we please stop suggesting that anti-LGBTQ "viewpoints" are worth exploring and that people are just to "embattled" on the issue of basic human decency?
andrewmcwatters 5y ago
“I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.” -1 Corinthians 1:10 (ESV) “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.” -Romans 16:17 (ESV) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.” -Galatians 1:6-10 (ESV)
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  Could you explain what you mean by those Bible verses? It's a bit hard to understand what you are trying to say/argue?
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Do not bear false witness vs don’t lie is a classic one. One is an item in the set of all lies, the other is the entire set of lies.
  - mint2 5y ago
    Yeah is that poster saying the division between the different Christian stances is against the Bibles message and one side or both is not in accordance with the words of the Bible. Or are they trying to suggesting the act of pointing out the very clear different and incompatible beliefs between two different Christian groups is actually the division the Bible is against. Hard to tell which, but those two readings are basically the opposite of each other.
- brightball 5y ago
aaron-santos 5y ago
Upvoting and monetization come to mind. They are really the go-tos when it comes to engagement and growth.
deanmen 5y ago
There is only one holy Catholic and apostolic church. Repent and submit to the Pope!
- x3iv130f 5y ago
  Heresy! Speaking more seriously, most churches these days are very ecumenical since they have realized they have much more in common with each other than secular culture.
- TimTheTinker 5y ago
  I don't think you'd actually hear someone saying something like this today, despite the fact that the theological divide between protestant and Roman Catholic remains what it has been. I'm a non-denominational protestant, but my family is good friends with a Roman Catholic family down the street... we do have so much in common with them, despite our disagreement as to whether justification and righteousness before God is conferred on the basis of faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
  - nyokodo 5y ago
    > despite our disagreement as to whether justification and righteousness before God is conferred on the basis of faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. There is a strong tendency for Catholics and Protestants, when we all chill out and sit down carefully making distinctions about Justification, to find we agreed all along but had different language to describe the same thing.[1] I suspect it extends to other doctrinal issues and areas of genuine disagreement become much more productive when said attitudes and practices are adopted. I also strongly suspect that most areas of disagreement between Christians are persistent symptoms of European Renaissance politics with theological rationalization. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doc...
- swiley 5y ago
  "Catholic" in church means something like "Common" in Desktop Environments.
akudha 5y ago
Your example is an interesting one. I wonder if majority of people make up a belief first and then follow a church that reaffirms their (already made up) belief or they follow a church first and let the church shape their beliefs?
- MattRix 5y ago
  Neither, most people are born into whatever church their parents went to ;) But seriously, it really is a mix. A church can most certainly shape its members beliefs, but many people will also leave a church over issues like these.
- Breza 5y ago
  That's an important question. I attend a church that I disagree with on some issues. What I love about it is that it's OK for me to tell our ministers that I disagree and we have a conversation. I mentioned that I didn't know how I felt about the topic of a recent sermon and I've been invited to work on a Bible study on the topic so the congregation can learn more.
wonderinglife 5y ago
Hey, good question ^^ we built Catena which only collates apostolic Christian commentary, which primarily comes from pre-denominational writers. Early Christian commentary is a deep source of original Christianity, definitely helps with accurate interpretation of Scripture, and you can filter which writers you would like to read from in the settings. Hope you find it helpful (get.catenabible.com)

theoblank 5y ago

Definitely an important question. In an ideal world, I believe people would want to explore and learn from viewpoints that differ from their own (after all, how else can you learn?). But, of course people tend to be very embattled on issues like these and shy away from anything that sounds different than what they already believe. One idea I have is to use a ML recommendation model that would use theological preferences as inputs. The trick would be how to personalize that model for a given user before knowing what content they want or would be put off by. Perhaps that could be part of the onboarding process though.

lalaland1125 5y ago
There is no need for ML here. The app can simply ask for the name of the person's church.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  And if the name is "Johnsonville Presbyterian Church" then what?
  - amerine 5y ago
    Seems pretty easy, https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-presbyterian-church-usa https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issu..., most major denominations are open about their stances on LGBTQ things.
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      Church name doesn't tell you the denomination. Do you know how many presbyterian denominations there are in the US alone? Most of them are probably completely the opposite of the PC(USA) on those particular issues the HRC cares to discuss at all.
    - calvinmorrison 5y ago
      That tells you about PC USA. Which is a historical mainline liberal presbytery in the US. It doesn't tell you in the last 5 years a good number of individual congregations have left because of this very issue and emigrated to the EPC or other slightly 'less' liberal denominations. Or that PCUSA has been hemmoraging numbers for a long time. Or the PCUSA has often been thought of as a big umbrella denoms that has in the past allowed individual prebyterys (regionally) to have differing rules. Or that presbyteries are not like catholic churches or anglican ones! There are no priests or higher authorities! Each presby congregation is made up of members, who elect elders, who then visit their local presbytery (the regional org) to vote on matters. Most importantly, it misses the fact, that Presbyterian is an anagram for Britney Spears
      - sudosteph 5y ago
        You know, I thought I already knew everything you were saying... but I'm really glad I read until the end.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        You mean "Presbyterians", right?
  - goldemerald 5y ago
    They will have no free will but to accept the recommendations given to them. But seriously, most churches belong to a denomination. And practically all denominations have a specific alignment on every theological issue you can imagine. In any case, you could simply go with reformed theology beliefs and that'll work for most users.
    - brightball 5y ago
      I hope other people got the chuckle out of your comment that I did.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > And practically all denominations have a specific alignment on every theological issue you can imagine. That's...not particularly true, especially for the denominations that are both large and institutionally old, or are newer but less centrally authoritarian. The Roman Catholic Church (for an example in the former category) for instance, has a small number of declared-as-infallible dogmas, a larger number of doctrines that arr understood to be certain or argued to have been infallibly declared, a wide space of broadly accepted doctrine about which there is still debate which is recognized as legitimate and not dissent, and plenty of open theological questions, more of which are added all the time, because changing circumstances raise new questions not previously considered, and change the factual context of previous considerations so that, even for doctrines that are solid, what piece of the prior articulation is the actual doctrine and what piece reflects the limitations of the context considered at the earlier time must be discerned, and is often actively debated.
      - gerdesj 5y ago
        "has a small number of declared-as-infallible dogmas" There's rather more to it in general but the concept of dogma is one of the reasons that many Christian denominations exist - in protest of the notion of dogma. For example: Papal Infallibility. The dogma of Papal Infallibility is that God created the post of Pope and inaugurated St Peter as the first one. God created the papacy for His purposes therefore holders of that role cannot be fallible. However, the Pope is a man (why can't Papa be Mum?) and I'm pretty sure that involves being a sinner. It takes some pretty fancy footwork to elevate a bloke who was a mere automatically sinning Cardinal into an Infallible Pope. For me the whole crux (if you like) of Christianity is that the ultimate divine being became a person and suffered as such - if you like: They experienced Their creation first hand. I don't think you should go around elevating people into little or demi Gods - that's a form of polytheism. Funnily enough I'm declaring my own form of dogma: People are not infallible: Pope, Queen, nor gerdesj. I do understand the Catholic concept of dogma and even why it still exists. It is not my point to belittle it either but there is quite a good reason why: "practically all denominations have a specific alignment." Those people find the concept of dogma and the like ... sometimes unsatisfactory.
- microtherion 5y ago
  I'm sure Emo Philips could design an UX for that.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
My advice? Don't filter bubble. Instead, just write “disputed”, with a link that goes into detail as to what various people think, and why.
- aae42 5y ago
  Literally every view on there would end up marked "disputed"
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Not every view. Some of them have an obvious, indisputable truth value – like “the start of Genesis 2 is just an out-of-order version of Genesis 1” (something I used to think until I looked at an untranslated version – it's obviously wrong, and only the specific word choice of a specific English translation suggests it could be right).
- highmastdon 5y ago
  This would be great. It’s about the way the Talmud is structured. Every piece has multiple interpretations and they’re written together and can be discussed an though about
vineyardmike 5y ago
Showing people only a small view of a bigger complex issue is def not the way to go - especially when things like human rights are involved.
Syonyk 5y ago
> One idea I have is to use a ML recommendation model that would use theological preferences as inputs. Please don't. If I want machine learning based AI augmented recommendations, that's literally the entire internet at this point outside a few niche circles. A Bible app does not need to go down that path.
ngngngng 5y ago
Does this app include teachings from Latter-day Saint theologians? While I'm interested in this, typically my faith is excluded from these sorts of projects, and often it doesn't take long when I dive into "mainstream" christian communities to come across hostility towards my faith or non trinitarian views.
- ybbond 5y ago
  I also have difficulties to find good iOS app for Catholic. Nah. It's very hard for me to find any downloadable version of Catholic publications. Anyway, that's too bad that you received that hostility. I have 2 mormon friends in my high school. They are chill and fun to hang-out with. They often invited me to join their church, but I can reject without making it a big issue.
  - wonderinglife 5y ago
    Hey, you might like to try get.catenabible.com - we have a large catholic, orthodox, and protestant user base interested in understanding Christianity from the early Christian interpretation. Hope you find it helpful, God bless!
- wyclif 5y ago
  No, it's a Christian app, so no Mormon content.
  - euthymiclabs 5y ago
    More accurately, I might say it's a protestant Christian app, whereas Mormonism considers itself restoration Christianity and may not fit as well here.
andrewmcwatters 5y ago
This is pretty blatantly against what disciples taught.
- brightball 5y ago
  2 Timothy 4:3-4 pretty much covers this head on. Teaching that you want to hear essentially.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    It's a spectrum. On one end you can just find someone to teach and validate all your existing beliefs. On the other, you can blindly follow religious leaders verbatim; all the way into a cult, Southern Baptist approval of slavery, or Catholic indulgences.
    - andrewmcwatters 5y ago
      This is just handwaving.
OxO4 5y ago
Can we please stop suggesting that anti-LGBTQ "viewpoints" are worth exploring and that people are just to "embattled" on the issue of basic human decency?

andrewmcwatters 5y ago

“I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.” -1 Corinthians 1:10 (ESV) “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.” -Romans 16:17 (ESV) “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.” -Galatians 1:6-10 (ESV)

lalaland1125 5y ago
Could you explain what you mean by those Bible verses? It's a bit hard to understand what you are trying to say/argue?
- treeman79 5y ago
  Do not bear false witness vs don’t lie is a classic one. One is an item in the set of all lies, the other is the entire set of lies.
- mint2 5y ago
  Yeah is that poster saying the division between the different Christian stances is against the Bibles message and one side or both is not in accordance with the words of the Bible. Or are they trying to suggesting the act of pointing out the very clear different and incompatible beliefs between two different Christian groups is actually the division the Bible is against. Hard to tell which, but those two readings are basically the opposite of each other.
brightball 5y ago

aaron-santos 5y ago

Upvoting and monetization come to mind. They are really the go-tos when it comes to engagement and growth.

deanmen 5y ago

There is only one holy Catholic and apostolic church. Repent and submit to the Pope!

x3iv130f 5y ago
Heresy! Speaking more seriously, most churches these days are very ecumenical since they have realized they have much more in common with each other than secular culture.
TimTheTinker 5y ago
I don't think you'd actually hear someone saying something like this today, despite the fact that the theological divide between protestant and Roman Catholic remains what it has been. I'm a non-denominational protestant, but my family is good friends with a Roman Catholic family down the street... we do have so much in common with them, despite our disagreement as to whether justification and righteousness before God is conferred on the basis of faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
- nyokodo 5y ago
  > despite our disagreement as to whether justification and righteousness before God is conferred on the basis of faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. There is a strong tendency for Catholics and Protestants, when we all chill out and sit down carefully making distinctions about Justification, to find we agreed all along but had different language to describe the same thing.[1] I suspect it extends to other doctrinal issues and areas of genuine disagreement become much more productive when said attitudes and practices are adopted. I also strongly suspect that most areas of disagreement between Christians are persistent symptoms of European Renaissance politics with theological rationalization. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doc...
swiley 5y ago
"Catholic" in church means something like "Common" in Desktop Environments.

akudha 5y ago

Your example is an interesting one. I wonder if majority of people make up a belief first and then follow a church that reaffirms their (already made up) belief or they follow a church first and let the church shape their beliefs?

MattRix 5y ago
Neither, most people are born into whatever church their parents went to ;) But seriously, it really is a mix. A church can most certainly shape its members beliefs, but many people will also leave a church over issues like these.
Breza 5y ago
That's an important question. I attend a church that I disagree with on some issues. What I love about it is that it's OK for me to tell our ministers that I disagree and we have a conversation. I mentioned that I didn't know how I felt about the topic of a recent sermon and I've been invited to work on a Bible study on the topic so the congregation can learn more.

wonderinglife 5y ago

Hey, good question ^^ we built Catena which only collates apostolic Christian commentary, which primarily comes from pre-denominational writers. Early Christian commentary is a deep source of original Christianity, definitely helps with accurate interpretation of Scripture, and you can filter which writers you would like to read from in the settings. Hope you find it helpful (get.catenabible.com)