6 ms·

You're referring to Fallback Mixing, which is off by default. You have to enable it in https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings. When

You're referring to Fallback Mixing, which is off by default. You have to enable it in https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings. When enabled, this feature will (at times) pull in results from Google via an anonymous query, routed through the browser. Read more about it here: https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback

andai 5y ago
> Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. If you happen to have a Google account, Google will not be able to associate your query with this account. I'm confused about "routed through the browser" -- is the browser talking to Google directly, but without sending the login cookies, and then hoping Google doesn't associate searches from your IP with your identity?
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  Correct, a query is issued from your browser but without any cookies. While it's true your IP address tags along for the ride, the IP address isn't typically how users are tracked on Google-scale properties. Due to NAT and more, your IP address is not exclusively yours. It can represent many people at once, and over time. That said, if you are not comfortable with the idea of Fallback Mixing, you do not need to enable the feature.
  - freediver 5y ago
    At the very least I suggest modifying the text on the page as it is misleading. > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. IP address is definitely considered private information even at court level. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-some-cases https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...
    - cortexio 5y ago
      Well.. it kinda isnt. If your IP would be private you CANNOT use the internet. You just cant. If you use a VPN, you share your IP with the VPN. So you ALWAYS have to share your IP with someone for anything you do on the internet. So it cant be private.. it just cant. There are 2 things u can do, either use a VPN and only share your IP with them, but then brave will also use your vpn when sending info to google, so your IP is safe in this case.. Or option 2 is that you watch out for the things u make connection to. Which is literally impossible. Visit any popular website and your IP gets sent all over place in the background, mostly towards CDNs or analytic platforms. But yeah, the brave feature is an opt-in.. so u kinda give your consent there. IP addresses are not exclussive to the internet, they also exist within local networks at home or office etc, people refer to your IP address when using the internet as your "Public IP address". That being said, it's not nice when people are spreading around your IP address. It's much the same as people sharing your home address. Companies should indeed not be allowed to just give this information away to other companies. But brave isnt doing this, as long it's an opt-in it's your own choice.
counternotions 5y ago
What incentive do Google and Bing have to share free SERP data to Brave in an anonymous channel?
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  They aren't sharing it with Brave directly, but rather with users. The query is issued via the participating user's Brave instance. This data then supplements what Brave Search has found, and assists Brave Search in presenting better results to that user, and others, in the future.
  - gundmc 5y ago
    This sounds like a dishonest way of bypassing payment for Google search API by impersonating a request from a user.
    - jonathansampson 5y ago
      It's still a request from the user; the user consents to issuing these requests on behalf of Brave Search when they opt-in to Fallback Mixing. Anybody can issue calls to Google's search engine.
      - freediver 5y ago
        Doesn't this get the user directly in violation of Google's TOS which prevents automated queries against it?
      - bagacrap 5y ago
        What do you think the Google custom search api is supposed to be used for if not serving searches that originated with some user?
Seirdy 5y ago
This has not been my experience. Comparing results with Google, Startpage, and a Searx instance with only Google enabled reveals that the results are almost always from Google. Sometimes they merge multiple results that share a domain. I decided to add them to the "Semi-Independent" category of my collection of indexing search engines: https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexes.html https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexe...
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  Brave Search doesn't fall-back to Google; not unless you have enabled Fallback Mixing in https://search.brave.com/settings/ https://search.brave.com/settings/. Brave Search has its own index; the results may resemble those of other engines at times, but they aren't pulled from those engines (again, noting the exception of Fallback Mixing, an optional feature offered to the user via Settings).
  - Seirdy 5y ago
    I'm testing on Firefox and the Tor browser right now, JS disabled. I also disabled cookies in Firefox. Searches for "Seirdy", "Neovim", "gccgo", and others return results identical to Google, Startpage, and Searx instances with only Google enabled. No other independent engine of all the 25 other English independently-indexing engines I compared in the article has had this happen; identical pages on all the other engines are nearly impossible to find for advanced/uncommon queries. 90% of queries being identical to Google but different from the 25 other independent engines is one hell of a coincidence. Archived example: Brave results for "gccgo": https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172743/https://search.brave.com/search?q=gccgo https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172743/https://search.br... Google results for "gccgo" (proxied through Startpage): https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172939/https://startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=gccgo https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172939/https://startpage... If this is a bug, it's very serious and needs to be publicly disclosed. Edit: more examples: Brave results for "oppenheimer": https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173647/https://search.brave.com/search?q=oppenheimer https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173647/https://search.br... Google results for "Oppenheimer" (proxied through Startpage): https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173658/https://startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=oppenheimer https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173658/https://startpage...
bleachedsleet 5y ago
It does not appear that they are exposing all possible settings configs on mobile as fallback mixing is not shown as an option for me there. This seems like an oversight to me.
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  Fallback Mixing is only available to Brave on desktop and Android at this time. Apologies for any confusion.
  - 1_player 5y ago
    Why is it only available on Brave? Doesn't make any sense.
    - jonathansampson 5y ago
      Because you cannot issue a cross-site request to Google from the client due to CORS policies. This feature required work in the Brave browser itself, so that the application would serve as a pipeline for the request on behalf of the search page itself.
twiddlebits 5y ago
I don't see a fallback mixing option on that page. Is it called 'Fallback Mixing' on that settings page? Also, these results are pulled from google and bing it seems for every query I do. seems like maybe some reranking is happening. And the query completions are from Bing. So you are sending everybody's queries to third parties. Not very private.

andai 5y ago

> Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. If you happen to have a Google account, Google will not be able to associate your query with this account. I'm confused about "routed through the browser" -- is the browser talking to Google directly, but without sending the login cookies, and then hoping Google doesn't associate searches from your IP with your identity?

jonathansampson 5y ago
Correct, a query is issued from your browser but without any cookies. While it's true your IP address tags along for the ride, the IP address isn't typically how users are tracked on Google-scale properties. Due to NAT and more, your IP address is not exclusively yours. It can represent many people at once, and over time. That said, if you are not comfortable with the idea of Fallback Mixing, you do not need to enable the feature.
- freediver 5y ago
  At the very least I suggest modifying the text on the page as it is misleading. > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. IP address is definitely considered private information even at court level. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-some-cases https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...
  - cortexio 5y ago
    Well.. it kinda isnt. If your IP would be private you CANNOT use the internet. You just cant. If you use a VPN, you share your IP with the VPN. So you ALWAYS have to share your IP with someone for anything you do on the internet. So it cant be private.. it just cant. There are 2 things u can do, either use a VPN and only share your IP with them, but then brave will also use your vpn when sending info to google, so your IP is safe in this case.. Or option 2 is that you watch out for the things u make connection to. Which is literally impossible. Visit any popular website and your IP gets sent all over place in the background, mostly towards CDNs or analytic platforms. But yeah, the brave feature is an opt-in.. so u kinda give your consent there. IP addresses are not exclussive to the internet, they also exist within local networks at home or office etc, people refer to your IP address when using the internet as your "Public IP address". That being said, it's not nice when people are spreading around your IP address. It's much the same as people sharing your home address. Companies should indeed not be allowed to just give this information away to other companies. But brave isnt doing this, as long it's an opt-in it's your own choice.

counternotions 5y ago

What incentive do Google and Bing have to share free SERP data to Brave in an anonymous channel?

jonathansampson 5y ago
They aren't sharing it with Brave directly, but rather with users. The query is issued via the participating user's Brave instance. This data then supplements what Brave Search has found, and assists Brave Search in presenting better results to that user, and others, in the future.
- gundmc 5y ago
  This sounds like a dishonest way of bypassing payment for Google search API by impersonating a request from a user.
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    It's still a request from the user; the user consents to issuing these requests on behalf of Brave Search when they opt-in to Fallback Mixing. Anybody can issue calls to Google's search engine.
    - freediver 5y ago
      Doesn't this get the user directly in violation of Google's TOS which prevents automated queries against it?
    - bagacrap 5y ago
      What do you think the Google custom search api is supposed to be used for if not serving searches that originated with some user?

Seirdy 5y ago

This has not been my experience. Comparing results with Google, Startpage, and a Searx instance with only Google enabled reveals that the results are almost always from Google. Sometimes they merge multiple results that share a domain. I decided to add them to the "Semi-Independent" category of my collection of indexing search engines: https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexes.html https://seirdy.one/2021/03/10/search-engines-with-own-indexe...

jonathansampson 5y ago
Brave Search doesn't fall-back to Google; not unless you have enabled Fallback Mixing in https://search.brave.com/settings/ https://search.brave.com/settings/. Brave Search has its own index; the results may resemble those of other engines at times, but they aren't pulled from those engines (again, noting the exception of Fallback Mixing, an optional feature offered to the user via Settings).
- Seirdy 5y ago
  I'm testing on Firefox and the Tor browser right now, JS disabled. I also disabled cookies in Firefox. Searches for "Seirdy", "Neovim", "gccgo", and others return results identical to Google, Startpage, and Searx instances with only Google enabled. No other independent engine of all the 25 other English independently-indexing engines I compared in the article has had this happen; identical pages on all the other engines are nearly impossible to find for advanced/uncommon queries. 90% of queries being identical to Google but different from the 25 other independent engines is one hell of a coincidence. Archived example: Brave results for "gccgo": https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172743/https://search.brave.com/search?q=gccgo https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172743/https://search.br... Google results for "gccgo" (proxied through Startpage): https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172939/https://startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=gccgo https://web.archive.org/web/20210622172939/https://startpage... If this is a bug, it's very serious and needs to be publicly disclosed. Edit: more examples: Brave results for "oppenheimer": https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173647/https://search.brave.com/search?q=oppenheimer https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173647/https://search.br... Google results for "Oppenheimer" (proxied through Startpage): https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173658/https://startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl?query=oppenheimer https://web.archive.org/web/20210622173658/https://startpage...

bleachedsleet 5y ago

It does not appear that they are exposing all possible settings configs on mobile as fallback mixing is not shown as an option for me there. This seems like an oversight to me.

jonathansampson 5y ago
Fallback Mixing is only available to Brave on desktop and Android at this time. Apologies for any confusion.
- 1_player 5y ago
  Why is it only available on Brave? Doesn't make any sense.
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    Because you cannot issue a cross-site request to Google from the client due to CORS policies. This feature required work in the Brave browser itself, so that the application would serve as a pipeline for the request on behalf of the search page itself.

twiddlebits 5y ago

I don't see a fallback mixing option on that page. Is it called 'Fallback Mixing' on that settings page? Also, these results are pulled from google and bing it seems for every query I do. seems like maybe some reranking is happening. And the query completions are from Bing. So you are sending everybody's queries to third parties. Not very private.