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The problem with "games" is that the designers often have a goal already in mind, and then give players the tools to reach that goal. For any meaningful analysi

by dexwiz 5y ago

The problem with "games" is that the designers often have a goal already in mind, and then give players the tools to reach that goal. For any meaningful analysis, you need to understand the artist (game designer) to fully understand the art (game). While SimCity carries its own biases, I highly doubt a game developed for activist conference is any more impartial. Utopias in general are a great demonstration of man's hubris, and we have known that forever. The Tower of Babel is perhaps the oldest fable warning against such fallacies, and Bruegel perfectly captured it in his renderings. Ford and Disney both attempted planned cities (Fordlandia and Epcot respectively), and failed. Utopia designers like SimCity wash away all that makes a city (people, struggles, relationships), and replaces it with a Map. Any simulation, no matter how noble, falls victim to the same problem that the Map is not the Land. If anything, its all a bike shedding operation of trying to fix something which we have control over, instead of what we do not, just to fulfill our Ego. How many city planners really care about the people over just imposing their own vision of ideal upon the populace?

aaron-santos 5y ago
> Utopias in general are a great demonstration of man's hubris, and we have known that forever. This is a message that programming language designers and advocates need to hear. The idea that a better language can lead to better outcomes is itself utopian in the same way that better cities can lead to better outcomes. They both take a look at the substrate and extrapolate. Sure, there's an infinite number of ways to make a bad city, but we have to realize that's a different kind of thing.
rrherr 5y ago
Yes, the OP acknowledges this: > I swear, I can design you a game that subtly leads people to whatever “solution” you want. > We have to encourage players to always question the designers’ systems and educate them to detect their biases and agendas, even our own. > Cities result from conflicts, conflicts are not always “solvable”. > The problem with most utopian thinking is the idea of tabula rasa, the blank slate. In order to design a perfect society, you have to start from zero. That’s the also utopianism of SimCity. Ctrl-F for "bias", "utopia", & "conflict" for more along these lines.
- treeman79 5y ago
  A fun one is to look at how taxation affects growth. All the sims I’ve seen have it set that lower tax rates equals more growth. This also reflects then opinion of one side of the political isle. It would be super easy to change that so higher taxes means higher growth to train people to believe that.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Games reflects reality. Lower tax rates do encourage growth. People/business keeping more money means lower prices more demand. The problems that growth creates require taxes (crime, traffic, population, affordable housing, etc). Making taxes mean higher growth one would raise them to the max, get max growth and use the high taxes to buy solutions to growth problems. It stops being a game because setting taxes lower never makes sense. Now you are just running a predetermined sim.
    - koheripbal 5y ago
      It really depends on how efficiently the gov't can spend the tax revenues. The reason most economists think that lower taxes are better for economic activity, is that usually the same money will be part of multiple transactions in the same amount of time that the government would take to spend it once. ...but you also have to balance the utility of that expenditure. Some forms of spending go towards equipment purchase, which can increase future economic activity - but other forms of spending really are wasteful until the next use of that money. ...but that analysis is nearly impossible an filled with so many judgement calls that no one can convincingly model it.
    - gameswithgo 5y ago
      I would imagine that taxes, like almost all dials you can tweak for optimization, have a point that is optimal for growth, above or below which, they are bad for growth. As taxes approach zero, for instance, you live in a mad max society and nothing can grow because there is no stability.
      - 5y ago
donatj 5y ago
> I highly doubt a game developed for activist conference is any more impartial. Or for that matter something I'd want to play.
mkr-hn 5y ago
SimCity itself was based on some questionable ideas about city planning. Polygon did a video and article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_51_YJQpeg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_51_YJQpeg0 https://www.polygon.com/videos/2021/4/1/22352583/simcity-hidden-politics-ideology-urban-dynamics https://www.polygon.com/videos/2021/4/1/22352583/simcity-hid...
me_me_me 5y ago
My biggest realisation as a kid playing SimCity 4000 was the fact that a city need industry, and industry needs blue collar workers. So you need to artificially create poorer districts. Also high status sims class will not use public transport as much because they are rich and can afford to create traffic jams. No matter if you pay for all incentives to use public transportation. You can't create a Utopia in SimCity, not for everyone.

by dexwiz 5y ago

aaron-santos 5y ago

> Utopias in general are a great demonstration of man's hubris, and we have known that forever. This is a message that programming language designers and advocates need to hear. The idea that a better language can lead to better outcomes is itself utopian in the same way that better cities can lead to better outcomes. They both take a look at the substrate and extrapolate. Sure, there's an infinite number of ways to make a bad city, but we have to realize that's a different kind of thing.

rrherr 5y ago

Yes, the OP acknowledges this: > I swear, I can design you a game that subtly leads people to whatever “solution” you want. > We have to encourage players to always question the designers’ systems and educate them to detect their biases and agendas, even our own. > Cities result from conflicts, conflicts are not always “solvable”. > The problem with most utopian thinking is the idea of tabula rasa, the blank slate. In order to design a perfect society, you have to start from zero. That’s the also utopianism of SimCity. Ctrl-F for "bias", "utopia", & "conflict" for more along these lines.

treeman79 5y ago
A fun one is to look at how taxation affects growth. All the sims I’ve seen have it set that lower tax rates equals more growth. This also reflects then opinion of one side of the political isle. It would be super easy to change that so higher taxes means higher growth to train people to believe that.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Games reflects reality. Lower tax rates do encourage growth. People/business keeping more money means lower prices more demand. The problems that growth creates require taxes (crime, traffic, population, affordable housing, etc). Making taxes mean higher growth one would raise them to the max, get max growth and use the high taxes to buy solutions to growth problems. It stops being a game because setting taxes lower never makes sense. Now you are just running a predetermined sim.
  - koheripbal 5y ago
    It really depends on how efficiently the gov't can spend the tax revenues. The reason most economists think that lower taxes are better for economic activity, is that usually the same money will be part of multiple transactions in the same amount of time that the government would take to spend it once. ...but you also have to balance the utility of that expenditure. Some forms of spending go towards equipment purchase, which can increase future economic activity - but other forms of spending really are wasteful until the next use of that money. ...but that analysis is nearly impossible an filled with so many judgement calls that no one can convincingly model it.
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    I would imagine that taxes, like almost all dials you can tweak for optimization, have a point that is optimal for growth, above or below which, they are bad for growth. As taxes approach zero, for instance, you live in a mad max society and nothing can grow because there is no stability.
    - 5y ago

donatj 5y ago

> I highly doubt a game developed for activist conference is any more impartial. Or for that matter something I'd want to play.

mkr-hn 5y ago

SimCity itself was based on some questionable ideas about city planning. Polygon did a video and article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_51_YJQpeg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_51_YJQpeg0 https://www.polygon.com/videos/2021/4/1/22352583/simcity-hidden-politics-ideology-urban-dynamics https://www.polygon.com/videos/2021/4/1/22352583/simcity-hid...

me_me_me 5y ago

My biggest realisation as a kid playing SimCity 4000 was the fact that a city need industry, and industry needs blue collar workers. So you need to artificially create poorer districts. Also high status sims class will not use public transport as much because they are rich and can afford to create traffic jams. No matter if you pay for all incentives to use public transportation. You can't create a Utopia in SimCity, not for everyone.