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Apparently, they have their own search index, which they say covers ~95% of queries, and if the results aren't in the index, it will then get it from Google or

Apparently, they have their own search index, which they say covers ~95% of queries, and if the results aren't in the index, it will then get it from Google or Bing. I'd love some more details on how this works. They probably aren't scraping the whole web. Are they just mirroring Bing and Google indexes? They seem to have their own page ranking algorithm that they're hoping to get trained.

open-paren 5y ago
I found the announcement blog post. Brave Search is a rebranding of Tailcat's product, which Brave acquired in March. https://brave.com/brave-search-beta/ https://brave.com/brave-search-beta/
- frakkingcylons 5y ago
  @dang, this seems like a good candidate to replace the current link of this post.
colesantiago 5y ago
I still wouldn't use it since it falls back to Bing or Google.
- cj 5y ago
  Presumably the fallback happens server side, and presumably the google/bing queries are cloaked so your IP isn't making it to google/bing. Curious why you wouldn't use bing/google even if your queries are "proxied" through Brave servers? (Assuming Brave isn't also sending your IP, etc, when they submit the query to google/bing)
- vmullin 5y ago
  Fallback can be turned off with an easy toggle in the settings: https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  You're referring to Fallback Mixing, which is off by default. You have to enable it in https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings. When enabled, this feature will (at times) pull in results from Google via an anonymous query, routed through the browser. Read more about it here: https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback
  - andai 5y ago
    > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. If you happen to have a Google account, Google will not be able to associate your query with this account. I'm confused about "routed through the browser" -- is the browser talking to Google directly, but without sending the login cookies, and then hoping Google doesn't associate searches from your IP with your identity?
    - jonathansampson 5y ago
      Correct, a query is issued from your browser but without any cookies. While it's true your IP address tags along for the ride, the IP address isn't typically how users are tracked on Google-scale properties. Due to NAT and more, your IP address is not exclusively yours. It can represent many people at once, and over time. That said, if you are not comfortable with the idea of Fallback Mixing, you do not need to enable the feature.
      - freediver 5y ago
        At the very least I suggest modifying the text on the page as it is misleading. > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. IP address is definitely considered private information even at court level. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-some-cases https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...
        cortexio 5y ago
        Well.. it kinda isnt. If your IP would be private you CANNOT use the internet. You just cant. If you use a VPN, you share your IP with the VPN. So you ALWAYS have to share your IP with someone for anything you do on the internet. So it cant be private.. it just cant. There are 2 things u can do, either use a VPN and only share your IP with them, but then brave will also use your vpn when sending info to google, so your IP is safe in this case.. Or option 2 is that you watch out for the things u make connection to. Which is literally impossible. Visit any popular website and your IP gets sent all over place in the background, mostly towards CDNs or analytic platforms. But yeah, the brave feature is an opt-in.. so u kinda give your consent there. IP addresses are not exclussive to the internet, they also exist within local networks at home or office etc, people refer to your IP address when using the internet as your "Public IP address". That being said, it's not nice when people are spreading around your IP address. It's much the same as people sharing your home address. Companies should indeed not be allowed to just give this information away to other companies. But brave isnt doing this, as long it's an opt-in it's your own choice.
- croddin 5y ago
  If that is the case, what search engine do you currently use?
- x4e 5y ago
  What search engine would you use then? This is what pretty much every alternative search engine does...
  - andai 5y ago
    Try our new Google alternative! * Powered by Google
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  What do you use? Doesn't DDG use Bing as well?
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  I just tested an image search on Bing (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=test https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=test) and Brave Search (https://search.brave.com/images?q=test https://search.brave.com/images?q=test) and it definitely appears that Brave is falling back to Bing as the results are highly identical, especially compared to Google (https://www.google.com/search?q=test https://www.google.com/search?q=test).
  - fatboy 5y ago
    They mention that image search is 100% bing. Not sure if this is planned to be replaced by their own implementation later. "However for some features, like searching for images, Brave Search will fetch results from Microsoft Bing."
    - jonathansampson 5y ago
      Indeed, we lean heavily on Bing for image search. With time and maturation, this will change I'm sure. That said, when Bing lacked "tank man" results recently, Brave Search still yielded results (although the quality wasn't what we'd like to see; still a beta product. Screenshots here: https://twitter.com/BraveSampson/status/1400926207416410113 https://twitter.com/BraveSampson/status/1400926207416410113). Crawl, walk, run. We're just getting started
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
So, note that Brave brought in the Cliqz/Tailcat team to build this: While it's a "new search engine", I'm guessing the data and algorithms they were working on previously have all made it into this project at some point. Cliqz launched in 2015, so there's a number of years of work put in.
- ramesh1994 5y ago
  I would also highly recommend the blog post series [1] from Cliqz talking about the tech behind the search. [1] - https://0x65.dev/ https://0x65.dev/
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    I was involved with the cliqz search engine and used their browser for a while. Great people with excellent integrity.
    - maverick74 5y ago
      Very sad about what happened. Had very high hopes for you guys (more than from brave). I know TailCat is open source... But what about Brave Search? Any clue?
Zhyl 5y ago
In December '19 the company that would end up being acquired by Brave did a number of blog posts [0] where they explained the tech. The short answer is 'a lot of word2vec'. [0] https://www.0x65.dev/ https://www.0x65.dev/
- x4e 5y ago
  Funny how their posts show such a different approach to their browser than Braves. E.g. forking Firefox not Chromium, implementing functionality as extension instead of in browser where possible...
  - scoopertrooper 5y ago
    > If all browsers end up using Blink (Google), the Web will suffer as developers will only optimize and test for the Blink rendering engine. Am I the only one that thinks that this would be a good thing? Like the entire industry sharing the same core open source technology? Write a website once and it works perfectly across all platforms?
    - Karunamon 5y ago
      Problem is, this means ceding what amounts to control of the browser, and so, the internet experience, to a privacy invasive megacorp. Were it a nonprofit trust, I'd be right there with you. But not a for-profit company, and sure as HELL not Google.
    - toyg 5y ago
      Chromium is nominally open source - in practice it's controlled by Google employees in any way that matters. So you would literally be handing full control over the web-experience to Google.
      - aembleton 5y ago
        Nothing would stop it being forked. If for example, Microsoft wanted something added then they could fork it; add their code and use that in Edge.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
evdoks 5y ago
Check this recent podcast with Brave‘s founder, where, among other things, he is talking about how the search is implemented: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/modern-finance/id1338620184?l=en&i=1000523845808 https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/modern-finance/id13386...
- bleachedsleet 5y ago
  Never heard of this show before, but it got a new subscriber out of me. Thanks for the link to this!
- gabrielsroka 5y ago
  Non-Apple link https://www.modern.finance/brave-browser/ https://www.modern.finance/brave-browser/

open-paren 5y ago

I found the announcement blog post. Brave Search is a rebranding of Tailcat's product, which Brave acquired in March. https://brave.com/brave-search-beta/ https://brave.com/brave-search-beta/

frakkingcylons 5y ago
@dang, this seems like a good candidate to replace the current link of this post.

colesantiago 5y ago

I still wouldn't use it since it falls back to Bing or Google.

cj 5y ago
Presumably the fallback happens server side, and presumably the google/bing queries are cloaked so your IP isn't making it to google/bing. Curious why you wouldn't use bing/google even if your queries are "proxied" through Brave servers? (Assuming Brave isn't also sending your IP, etc, when they submit the query to google/bing)
vmullin 5y ago
Fallback can be turned off with an easy toggle in the settings: https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings
jonathansampson 5y ago
You're referring to Fallback Mixing, which is off by default. You have to enable it in https://search.brave.com/settings https://search.brave.com/settings. When enabled, this feature will (at times) pull in results from Google via an anonymous query, routed through the browser. Read more about it here: https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback
- andai 5y ago
  > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. If you happen to have a Google account, Google will not be able to associate your query with this account. I'm confused about "routed through the browser" -- is the browser talking to Google directly, but without sending the login cookies, and then hoping Google doesn't associate searches from your IP with your identity?
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    Correct, a query is issued from your browser but without any cookies. While it's true your IP address tags along for the ride, the IP address isn't typically how users are tracked on Google-scale properties. Due to NAT and more, your IP address is not exclusively yours. It can represent many people at once, and over time. That said, if you are not comfortable with the idea of Fallback Mixing, you do not need to enable the feature.
    - freediver 5y ago
      At the very least I suggest modifying the text on the page as it is misleading. > Note that choosing this option has no effect on your privacy. IP address is definitely considered private information even at court level. https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-ip-addresses-are-personal-data-some-cases https://www.whitecase.com/publications/alert/court-confirms-...
      - cortexio 5y ago
        Well.. it kinda isnt. If your IP would be private you CANNOT use the internet. You just cant. If you use a VPN, you share your IP with the VPN. So you ALWAYS have to share your IP with someone for anything you do on the internet. So it cant be private.. it just cant. There are 2 things u can do, either use a VPN and only share your IP with them, but then brave will also use your vpn when sending info to google, so your IP is safe in this case.. Or option 2 is that you watch out for the things u make connection to. Which is literally impossible. Visit any popular website and your IP gets sent all over place in the background, mostly towards CDNs or analytic platforms. But yeah, the brave feature is an opt-in.. so u kinda give your consent there. IP addresses are not exclussive to the internet, they also exist within local networks at home or office etc, people refer to your IP address when using the internet as your "Public IP address". That being said, it's not nice when people are spreading around your IP address. It's much the same as people sharing your home address. Companies should indeed not be allowed to just give this information away to other companies. But brave isnt doing this, as long it's an opt-in it's your own choice.
croddin 5y ago
If that is the case, what search engine do you currently use?
x4e 5y ago
What search engine would you use then? This is what pretty much every alternative search engine does...
- andai 5y ago
  Try our new Google alternative! * Powered by Google
wutbrodo 5y ago
What do you use? Doesn't DDG use Bing as well?
ElijahLynn 5y ago
I just tested an image search on Bing (https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=test https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=test) and Brave Search (https://search.brave.com/images?q=test https://search.brave.com/images?q=test) and it definitely appears that Brave is falling back to Bing as the results are highly identical, especially compared to Google (https://www.google.com/search?q=test https://www.google.com/search?q=test).
- fatboy 5y ago
  They mention that image search is 100% bing. Not sure if this is planned to be replaced by their own implementation later. "However for some features, like searching for images, Brave Search will fetch results from Microsoft Bing."
  - jonathansampson 5y ago
    Indeed, we lean heavily on Bing for image search. With time and maturation, this will change I'm sure. That said, when Bing lacked "tank man" results recently, Brave Search still yielded results (although the quality wasn't what we'd like to see; still a beta product. Screenshots here: https://twitter.com/BraveSampson/status/1400926207416410113 https://twitter.com/BraveSampson/status/1400926207416410113). Crawl, walk, run. We're just getting started

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

So, note that Brave brought in the Cliqz/Tailcat team to build this: While it's a "new search engine", I'm guessing the data and algorithms they were working on previously have all made it into this project at some point. Cliqz launched in 2015, so there's a number of years of work put in.

ramesh1994 5y ago
I would also highly recommend the blog post series [1] from Cliqz talking about the tech behind the search. [1] - https://0x65.dev/ https://0x65.dev/
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  I was involved with the cliqz search engine and used their browser for a while. Great people with excellent integrity.
  - maverick74 5y ago
    Very sad about what happened. Had very high hopes for you guys (more than from brave). I know TailCat is open source... But what about Brave Search? Any clue?

Zhyl 5y ago

In December '19 the company that would end up being acquired by Brave did a number of blog posts [0] where they explained the tech. The short answer is 'a lot of word2vec'. [0] https://www.0x65.dev/ https://www.0x65.dev/

x4e 5y ago
Funny how their posts show such a different approach to their browser than Braves. E.g. forking Firefox not Chromium, implementing functionality as extension instead of in browser where possible...
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  > If all browsers end up using Blink (Google), the Web will suffer as developers will only optimize and test for the Blink rendering engine. Am I the only one that thinks that this would be a good thing? Like the entire industry sharing the same core open source technology? Write a website once and it works perfectly across all platforms?
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    Problem is, this means ceding what amounts to control of the browser, and so, the internet experience, to a privacy invasive megacorp. Were it a nonprofit trust, I'd be right there with you. But not a for-profit company, and sure as HELL not Google.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Chromium is nominally open source - in practice it's controlled by Google employees in any way that matters. So you would literally be handing full control over the web-experience to Google.
    - aembleton 5y ago
      Nothing would stop it being forked. If for example, Microsoft wanted something added then they could fork it; add their code and use that in Edge.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

evdoks 5y ago

Check this recent podcast with Brave‘s founder, where, among other things, he is talking about how the search is implemented: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/modern-finance/id1338620184?l=en&i=1000523845808 https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/modern-finance/id13386...

bleachedsleet 5y ago
Never heard of this show before, but it got a new subscriber out of me. Thanks for the link to this!
gabrielsroka 5y ago
Non-Apple link https://www.modern.finance/brave-browser/ https://www.modern.finance/brave-browser/