6 ms·

Although apps are open source there is a lot of potential that all those information can be missued mainly for tracking: 1) Some other countries or commercial

by pzo 5y ago

Although apps are open source there is a lot of potential that all those information can be missued mainly for tracking: 1) Some other countries or commercial venues using their own version of VERIFIER app (based on open source) that pings some server online 2) Some other countries using their own version of ID app (based on open source) that pings some server online while QRCODE is rendered/generated I'm just wondering why they havent designed it in different way (only when applying for use in commercial venues): For application inside nightclubs, concerts etc. : 1) QRCode doesn't have any private data such as firstname / family name / date of birth etc (so that it's impossible to create profile ID) 2) While downloading your qrcode for the first time after installing the app (onboarding), it ask your for e.g scanning your National ID and/or holding your phone in front of mirror to verify your face (similar like other banking app do). After verification only then generates offline qr code for you 3) While onboarding it is mandatory that app is protected with your FaceId or TouchId 4) Such app can be installed only on one device (similar like in Whatsapp once trying onboarding on new device the previous app code is invalid) - any qrcode would be valid only for 48h 5) Bouncer still scan qrcode to check offline if is properly signed by authority + communicated with the app P2P via NFC/Bluetooth/Proximity to verify this is neither screenshot nor some unauthorized app. ad 5) Verifier maybe would have to ping some server to check that App is legit but wouldn't know who is checkin in edit - formatting

petre 5y ago
> 2) While downloading your qrcode for the first time after installing the app (onboarding), it ask your for e.g scanning your National ID and/or holding your phone in front of mirror to verify your face (similar like other banking app do) This is already way over the line. I can understand banking apps do it but for a vacvination certificate? No way. The QR code implementation is fine. It would also be fine if it would be printed on paper or in a PDF and valid for a year.
- pzo 5y ago
  I agree this is more hassle but the QR code implementation is only fine if you trust that some EU governments or companies won't try to abuse the system in the future. I'm not saying that this will happen but why not design the system so that it is not possible? If verifier app will at some point start pinging some server having a QRCode in PDF or printed on paper won't save you from someone tracking all places you are going to. Imagine how useful it can be for tracking some politicians, activists or journalists and correlating that check-in information who they might be meeting with.
- Yaina 5y ago
  I think you can totally print the current QR code on a piece of paper and show that to someone. It's not more or less safe than having it in an App. The QR code is essentially like a Covid-only digital vaccination pass; it doesn't provide any more or less information. The only valid point in pzo's original comment is that a scanner app from a bad actor could collect the personal information within the code. So we need to be able to trust that the person scanning the QR code is using a legitimate app.
  - pzo 5y ago
    I'm not worried that much about personal information (that someone will know that someone has been vacinated). I'm more worried that this personal information can allow tracking (politicians, activists, journalists, etc.) in an automated way in the same way cookies, etc. tracks us today while browsing.
radicalbyte 5y ago
With CoronaCheck (https://coronacheck.nl https://coronacheck.nl) we have implemented one of the most privacy preserving EU Green Systems for use within our country. We use IDEMIX, a form of Verifiable Credentials. The nice feature of IDEMIX is that - unlike W3C VC - it also has the property of being able to create unlinkable credentials. Guess what? That's the reason that we've used them :) Read our technical designs here: https://github.com/minvws/nl-covid19-coronacheck-app-coordination/blob/main/architecture/Privacy%20Preserving%20Green%20Card.md https://github.com/minvws/nl-covid19-coronacheck-app-coordin...
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  The Ministry of Health here have been commendable in the way that they've approached these apps. The key re-usable components of the system been development in public and in open and made available with a permissive license.
- gillesjacobs 5y ago
  I wish the standard would have adopted your proof of concept! I don't think you will get a lot of support here though, privacy skepticism regarding COVID seems to be met with downvote brigades.
  - radicalbyte 5y ago
    I wish that I could share my thoughts on that in public :(
  - mmcnl 5y ago
    It's not a PoC, CoronaCheck is the app that will be used in The Netherlands for generating QR codes. The domestic QR code will be much more friendly with respect to privacy as explained by radicalbytes. The reason that it's not been adopted by the EU is because member states want to set their own rules for entry. For example, some countries consider previous infection + 1 dose as fully vaccinated, others do not. Some countries approve non-EMA approved vaccines, most do not. That's why it's necessary to include more details. I think you have to remember that everything is a trade-off, if you want a more privacy-friendly solution, there will be a cost at some point.
remus 5y ago
Regarding your proposed scheme, what's to stop me taking a screenshot from the app and sharing it with all my friends? If the QR code contains no personal info then how does the person scanning it know who the code was generated for?
- pzo 5y ago
  You would have to share your phone which you are probably less likely. Scanner doesn't need to know who the code was generated for only if this is a legit authorized app - it's easy to check if this is a real app with some challenge-response instead of one way-communication
- mmcnl 5y ago
  The QR code has the first letters of your fist and last name, as well as date of birth (without the year). Let's say your name is Gerrit de Winter, born May 3 1973. The QR code would then contain: G W 5/3 Nothing is stopping you from sharing the code with your friends as long as they share these limited credentials, but those chances are very small. It's easier to get a valid QR code than finding a credential twin.
CRConrad 5y ago
> 2) While downloading your qrcode for the first time after installing the app (onboarding), it ask your for e.g scanning your National ID and/or holding your phone in front of mirror to verify your face (similar like other banking app do). After verification only then generates offline qr code for you So you can scan in the face of your vaccinated cousin to go with his QR code you downloaded; or the driver's license you stole off some poor sucker. Doesn't seems like all that great a security scheme to me.

by pzo 5y ago

petre 5y ago

> 2) While downloading your qrcode for the first time after installing the app (onboarding), it ask your for e.g scanning your National ID and/or holding your phone in front of mirror to verify your face (similar like other banking app do) This is already way over the line. I can understand banking apps do it but for a vacvination certificate? No way. The QR code implementation is fine. It would also be fine if it would be printed on paper or in a PDF and valid for a year.

pzo 5y ago
I agree this is more hassle but the QR code implementation is only fine if you trust that some EU governments or companies won't try to abuse the system in the future. I'm not saying that this will happen but why not design the system so that it is not possible? If verifier app will at some point start pinging some server having a QRCode in PDF or printed on paper won't save you from someone tracking all places you are going to. Imagine how useful it can be for tracking some politicians, activists or journalists and correlating that check-in information who they might be meeting with.
Yaina 5y ago
I think you can totally print the current QR code on a piece of paper and show that to someone. It's not more or less safe than having it in an App. The QR code is essentially like a Covid-only digital vaccination pass; it doesn't provide any more or less information. The only valid point in pzo's original comment is that a scanner app from a bad actor could collect the personal information within the code. So we need to be able to trust that the person scanning the QR code is using a legitimate app.
- pzo 5y ago
  I'm not worried that much about personal information (that someone will know that someone has been vacinated). I'm more worried that this personal information can allow tracking (politicians, activists, journalists, etc.) in an automated way in the same way cookies, etc. tracks us today while browsing.

radicalbyte 5y ago

With CoronaCheck (https://coronacheck.nl https://coronacheck.nl) we have implemented one of the most privacy preserving EU Green Systems for use within our country. We use IDEMIX, a form of Verifiable Credentials. The nice feature of IDEMIX is that - unlike W3C VC - it also has the property of being able to create unlinkable credentials. Guess what? That's the reason that we've used them :) Read our technical designs here: https://github.com/minvws/nl-covid19-coronacheck-app-coordination/blob/main/architecture/Privacy%20Preserving%20Green%20Card.md https://github.com/minvws/nl-covid19-coronacheck-app-coordin...

radicalbyte 5y ago
The Ministry of Health here have been commendable in the way that they've approached these apps. The key re-usable components of the system been development in public and in open and made available with a permissive license.
gillesjacobs 5y ago
I wish the standard would have adopted your proof of concept! I don't think you will get a lot of support here though, privacy skepticism regarding COVID seems to be met with downvote brigades.
- radicalbyte 5y ago
  I wish that I could share my thoughts on that in public :(
- mmcnl 5y ago
  It's not a PoC, CoronaCheck is the app that will be used in The Netherlands for generating QR codes. The domestic QR code will be much more friendly with respect to privacy as explained by radicalbytes. The reason that it's not been adopted by the EU is because member states want to set their own rules for entry. For example, some countries consider previous infection + 1 dose as fully vaccinated, others do not. Some countries approve non-EMA approved vaccines, most do not. That's why it's necessary to include more details. I think you have to remember that everything is a trade-off, if you want a more privacy-friendly solution, there will be a cost at some point.

remus 5y ago

Regarding your proposed scheme, what's to stop me taking a screenshot from the app and sharing it with all my friends? If the QR code contains no personal info then how does the person scanning it know who the code was generated for?

pzo 5y ago
You would have to share your phone which you are probably less likely. Scanner doesn't need to know who the code was generated for only if this is a legit authorized app - it's easy to check if this is a real app with some challenge-response instead of one way-communication
mmcnl 5y ago
The QR code has the first letters of your fist and last name, as well as date of birth (without the year). Let's say your name is Gerrit de Winter, born May 3 1973. The QR code would then contain: G W 5/3 Nothing is stopping you from sharing the code with your friends as long as they share these limited credentials, but those chances are very small. It's easier to get a valid QR code than finding a credential twin.

CRConrad 5y ago

> 2) While downloading your qrcode for the first time after installing the app (onboarding), it ask your for e.g scanning your National ID and/or holding your phone in front of mirror to verify your face (similar like other banking app do). After verification only then generates offline qr code for you So you can scan in the face of your vaccinated cousin to go with his QR code you downloaded; or the driver's license you stole off some poor sucker. Doesn't seems like all that great a security scheme to me.