4 ms·

> My problem with the entire system is that this code is basically a free pass for all the old people we've stayed inside for a year for to go on holiday, while

by Tepix 5y ago

> My problem with the entire system is that this code is basically a free pass for all the old people we've stayed inside for a year for to go on holiday, while everyone else gets to go through all the same hoops they've been going through for months. I don't understand. Why does it bother you if someone else is allowed to meet her friends again after being vaccinated and you are not? If they sit alone at home instead, how does it benefit you? The reason why they had to isolate themselves (being at risk of dying and infecting others) is gone. That means there is also no legal legitimation to restrict the people's basic human rights any longer than necessary.

cr1895 5y ago
The vaccine QR code only matters for large events or travel abroad, so the example about meeting friends makes no difference whether you’re vaccinated or not. In any case, while it is certainly nicer to be vaccinated, it’s possible to get free PCR tests for the equivalent access.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  So no football games with friends, and no friends abroad? PCR test cost around 100eur in slovenia, and take a day or two. Fast tests (HAT) are free, but the waiting lines are 1-3hours, because of all the groups that have to do mandatroy testings each week.
  - cr1895 5y ago
    >So no football games with friends, and no friends abroad? No, that's not true. I've mentioned it in a few comments now, but for events within Netherlands there is no cost - you can either have your (free) vaccination check or you can get a free PCR test and have a time-limited entry code. PCR tests for this purpose are always free in NL. And the Netherlands is covering the cost of PCR tests for travel through July and August, by which point any adult who wants a vaccine can have had one.
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      PCR tests in slovenia are in a ~100eur range. Time limited is how long? I'm guessing 48 hours? So, even if free, you need to take an hour or two out of your life, every two days to be able to go to the cinema/footbal match/concert? In slovenia, there are cases of people getting intentionally infected with covid, just to get "the papers", and to avoid the AstraZeneca vaccine (with, quoting the leader of our "expert team": "blood clot issues in a few per 100k people" - which is way more than the covid death rate in those age group). Add to this the famous saying, that "there is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution".
      - cr1895 5y ago
        Sorry to hear PCR tests are so expensive there! They're like that in NL normally if you go to a private lab in order to get a certificate for travel. If you get a government one then there's no certificate for it normally. >Time limited is how long? I'm guessing 48 hours? So, even if free, you need to take an hour or two out of your life, every two days to be able to go to the cinema/footbal match/concert? Certainly not saying it is seamless or not a total pain in the ass, but in reference to the OP it is wrong to characterize this as young people suffering, locked at home at the expense of old people who are free to do everything.
        ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        Yes, they're expensive. Fast tests are free, but waitint times are in the range of 1-3hours (those are ok to visit restaurants, etc.). The government here has been moving the goalposts a lot, because we're in the "green" phase now, where just a few months ago, pretty much everything was allowed, and now they've added the vaccine/recovered/tested requirement (called PCT here) to everything. Also, we've ended the "epidemy status", so no more help for businesses, while still limiting how they can operate (requiring PCT, limiting number of people per square meters or percentage of capacity), and night clubs are only allowed to be open until midnight (making it not worth it to open, but without any help to keep the employees employed).
jeroenhd 5y ago
You don't use this system to meet your friends, you use it to go to venues, events, on holiday. Your friends probably don't stand in their front door with a QR validator in hand. Everyone has had their lives interrupted for a year to save the old and weak, has had their life-saving vaccinations rationed towards the old and weak, and in exchange, the old and weak get to go to concerts without paying for a covid test. Is that the thanks we get for trying to save their lives? The government isn't helping the younger generations, they didn't vote for them anyway, and the news is full of entitles people demanding to get a stamp to go on holiday before the app goes live. Is it fair that my human rights are still restricted, while those of the people the restrictions are intended to protect aren't? It doesn't feel fair to me.
- cr1895 5y ago
  >the old and weak get to go to concerts without paying for a covid test. Be fair now...you also do not need to pay for the test. It's a hassle, true.
- grive 5y ago
  > Is that the thanks we get for trying to save their lives? What kind of 'thanks' would you expect exactly? They have lived the year at higher risk of contracting dangerous symptom, while you were safer in comparison. Was it fair then? When you were able not to fear too much about your safety? Frankly, forcing people to stay inside while they have been vaccinated and are at an acceptable level of risk, under the guise of 'fairness' is pretty rich.
  - andai 5y ago
    I think he means the opposite -- that at this point (with the entire vulnerable population fully vaccinated) it's unreasonable to force anyone to undergo restrictions.
    - _ZeD_ 5y ago
      "entire vulnerable population fully vaccinated"? where?
altacc 5y ago
The way I see it is that if you are going to restrict freedom's based on a status, then everyone should have had the option to attain that status before those restrictions are in place. If the government is controlling access to that status, then it is a selective infringement of rights as decided by the government. In this case the status is vaccinated status, which in many countries is not widely available and the distribution is controlled by the government. However at the point where everyone has equal access to the vaccination (and uptake is enough to provide herd immunity) such restrictions are unnecessary. So as soon as it's fair to put in place restrictions, they are no longer necessary. I see the issue here but for the government it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, or a lesser of two evils. Keeping restrictions in place for everyone whilst waiting until herd immunity is achieved is a severe restriction of freedoms for everyone, whereas loosing restrictions for those who are vaccinated is unfair but allows society to slowly return to normal.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
> I don't understand. Why does it bother you if someone else is allowed to meet her friends again after being vaccinated and you are not? If they sit alone at home instead, how does it benefit you? The reason why they had to isolate themselves (being at risk of dying and infecting others) is gone. That means there is also no legal legitimation to restrict the people's basic human rights any longer than necessary. Because the young people could meet their friends and go on holidays with minimal risk[0], but they were not allowed to, because they had to "save grandma". Now grandma is "saved" and vaccinated, and they're still not allowed to go, with the risk still being minimal. [0] in slovenia, the have been 600k-1mio (depending on the expert) infections, and total number of 4(!) people died below the age of 35, 88 below 55 (including those 4) - for comparison, average number of deaths in traffic is ~100 per year.

by Tepix 5y ago

cr1895 5y ago

The vaccine QR code only matters for large events or travel abroad, so the example about meeting friends makes no difference whether you’re vaccinated or not. In any case, while it is certainly nicer to be vaccinated, it’s possible to get free PCR tests for the equivalent access.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
So no football games with friends, and no friends abroad? PCR test cost around 100eur in slovenia, and take a day or two. Fast tests (HAT) are free, but the waiting lines are 1-3hours, because of all the groups that have to do mandatroy testings each week.
- cr1895 5y ago
  >So no football games with friends, and no friends abroad? No, that's not true. I've mentioned it in a few comments now, but for events within Netherlands there is no cost - you can either have your (free) vaccination check or you can get a free PCR test and have a time-limited entry code. PCR tests for this purpose are always free in NL. And the Netherlands is covering the cost of PCR tests for travel through July and August, by which point any adult who wants a vaccine can have had one.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    PCR tests in slovenia are in a ~100eur range. Time limited is how long? I'm guessing 48 hours? So, even if free, you need to take an hour or two out of your life, every two days to be able to go to the cinema/footbal match/concert? In slovenia, there are cases of people getting intentionally infected with covid, just to get "the papers", and to avoid the AstraZeneca vaccine (with, quoting the leader of our "expert team": "blood clot issues in a few per 100k people" - which is way more than the covid death rate in those age group). Add to this the famous saying, that "there is nothing more permanent than a temporary solution".
    - cr1895 5y ago
      Sorry to hear PCR tests are so expensive there! They're like that in NL normally if you go to a private lab in order to get a certificate for travel. If you get a government one then there's no certificate for it normally. >Time limited is how long? I'm guessing 48 hours? So, even if free, you need to take an hour or two out of your life, every two days to be able to go to the cinema/footbal match/concert? Certainly not saying it is seamless or not a total pain in the ass, but in reference to the OP it is wrong to characterize this as young people suffering, locked at home at the expense of old people who are free to do everything.
      - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        Yes, they're expensive. Fast tests are free, but waitint times are in the range of 1-3hours (those are ok to visit restaurants, etc.). The government here has been moving the goalposts a lot, because we're in the "green" phase now, where just a few months ago, pretty much everything was allowed, and now they've added the vaccine/recovered/tested requirement (called PCT here) to everything. Also, we've ended the "epidemy status", so no more help for businesses, while still limiting how they can operate (requiring PCT, limiting number of people per square meters or percentage of capacity), and night clubs are only allowed to be open until midnight (making it not worth it to open, but without any help to keep the employees employed).

jeroenhd 5y ago

You don't use this system to meet your friends, you use it to go to venues, events, on holiday. Your friends probably don't stand in their front door with a QR validator in hand. Everyone has had their lives interrupted for a year to save the old and weak, has had their life-saving vaccinations rationed towards the old and weak, and in exchange, the old and weak get to go to concerts without paying for a covid test. Is that the thanks we get for trying to save their lives? The government isn't helping the younger generations, they didn't vote for them anyway, and the news is full of entitles people demanding to get a stamp to go on holiday before the app goes live. Is it fair that my human rights are still restricted, while those of the people the restrictions are intended to protect aren't? It doesn't feel fair to me.

cr1895 5y ago
>the old and weak get to go to concerts without paying for a covid test. Be fair now...you also do not need to pay for the test. It's a hassle, true.
grive 5y ago
> Is that the thanks we get for trying to save their lives? What kind of 'thanks' would you expect exactly? They have lived the year at higher risk of contracting dangerous symptom, while you were safer in comparison. Was it fair then? When you were able not to fear too much about your safety? Frankly, forcing people to stay inside while they have been vaccinated and are at an acceptable level of risk, under the guise of 'fairness' is pretty rich.
- andai 5y ago
  I think he means the opposite -- that at this point (with the entire vulnerable population fully vaccinated) it's unreasonable to force anyone to undergo restrictions.
  - _ZeD_ 5y ago
    "entire vulnerable population fully vaccinated"? where?

altacc 5y ago

The way I see it is that if you are going to restrict freedom's based on a status, then everyone should have had the option to attain that status before those restrictions are in place. If the government is controlling access to that status, then it is a selective infringement of rights as decided by the government. In this case the status is vaccinated status, which in many countries is not widely available and the distribution is controlled by the government. However at the point where everyone has equal access to the vaccination (and uptake is enough to provide herd immunity) such restrictions are unnecessary. So as soon as it's fair to put in place restrictions, they are no longer necessary. I see the issue here but for the government it's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, or a lesser of two evils. Keeping restrictions in place for everyone whilst waiting until herd immunity is achieved is a severe restriction of freedoms for everyone, whereas loosing restrictions for those who are vaccinated is unfair but allows society to slowly return to normal.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

> I don't understand. Why does it bother you if someone else is allowed to meet her friends again after being vaccinated and you are not? If they sit alone at home instead, how does it benefit you? The reason why they had to isolate themselves (being at risk of dying and infecting others) is gone. That means there is also no legal legitimation to restrict the people's basic human rights any longer than necessary. Because the young people could meet their friends and go on holidays with minimal risk[0], but they were not allowed to, because they had to "save grandma". Now grandma is "saved" and vaccinated, and they're still not allowed to go, with the risk still being minimal. [0] in slovenia, the have been 600k-1mio (depending on the expert) infections, and total number of 4(!) people died below the age of 35, 88 below 55 (including those 4) - for comparison, average number of deaths in traffic is ~100 per year.