4 ms·

As a former "honors"-program student, I found that the main value of the program was the group of like-minded peers, whom took their educations seriously, were

As a former "honors"-program student, I found that the main value of the program was the group of like-minded peers, whom took their educations seriously, were competitive on academics, extracurriculars, and other achievements. The actual material wasn't terribly different than the regular classroom. I had also been in regular classrooms, where the "cool kids" were the ones who weren't "keeners", goofed off in class, who had sexual experiences the earliest or who would drink and do drugs at a young age.

entityDev 5y ago
Sacrifices right? While one group goofs off, does the minimum to get by, who for one reason or another are satisfied with mediocre grades... another group is sacrificing these things to develop their skills, it's not just in academia. I know people who worked hard on their Math, others worked hard at the Track/Sports, others worked at music instruments, and other activities and became top in our school. Sure, they had higher nerd status than the rest because they spent more time studying than socializing - but trust me, they didn't miss much.
chickenpotpie 5y ago
Counter point: maybe the regular classrooms develop that culture because all the gifted students were removed and it creates an echo chamber and a self fulfilling prophecy.
- fatjokes 5y ago
  I'm skeptical. If the minority gifted* students could change the culture of the regular classroom the bullied nerd wouldn't be such a trope. *Let's say that by definition, gifted = a small top percentage of students.
  - aaaxyz 5y ago
    You'd be surprised. Having 2-3 gifted students who can explain basic concepts to the "average" kids and help them with assignments takes a significant load off the teachers back (who can then focus on helping kids with serious learning difficulties).
    - remarkEon 5y ago
      I think this is more an argument for smaller class sizes and more individualized instruction, not necessarily eliminating honors classes altogether.
      - aaaxyz 5y ago
        There's a significant shortage of teachers in the US & Canada, especially for math & sciences, so I'm not sure how we could realistically reduce class sizes in the short to medium term
        remarkEon 5y ago
        Yeah, fair point. I guess from my perspective (my sister is a teacher at a charter school in Iowa that does have lower class sizes and much better educational outcomes) smaller class sizes seem like such low hanging fruit if the objective is simply to improve learning, not over-specify some testing metric.
    - nscalf 5y ago
      This is a terrible approach to teaching. I’ve been in high school classes where I played the TA role, and when I couldn’t switch to another class I started skipping. It slows down the students who learn too quickly for the class, there’s no point for smart students to drill concepts as much as the others. As someone who was in equivalent programs in the US, I can tell you my experience was that most people in the normal classes didn’t really care, and that attitude is far more likely to discourage the 2-3 gifted students than it is for gifted students to somehow lift up all the other students. As others have said, gifted students weren’t just smarter students, they were mostly the students who cared.
    - forbiddenvoid 5y ago
      The 'gifted' students should not be forced (or expected) to offload the burden of instruction from the teacher.
    - kyboren 5y ago
      > Having 2-3 gifted students who can explain basic concepts to the "average" kids and help them with assignments takes a significant load off the teachers back Calling @treis who claimed[0] 4 days ago that "Nobody is talking about forcing the high achievers to do the teacher's job". Well, here ya go. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27563940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27563940
- entityDev 5y ago
  No, the more studious removed themselves to work at their chosen craft, and therefore can't be in two places at once.
failwhaleshark 5y ago
Independent of individual honors' programs, California's Gifted And Talented Education (GATE) program in the 80's and 90's, AFAICT, consisted solely of IQ tests, i.e., timed triangle arrangement tests. I didn't see any point to it other than spending taxpayer money and/or for the education department to tick a box that they had a GAT program. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist wingnut, but a country should inventory its smartest students. I believe GAT programs are how it is done in the US. If this were the case, it seems plausible these students are tracked and recruited by intelligence (no pun intended) agencies and strategic opportunities later on if they meet certain criteria. Hypothetically, GAT data would feed such a human assets program.

entityDev 5y ago

Sacrifices right? While one group goofs off, does the minimum to get by, who for one reason or another are satisfied with mediocre grades... another group is sacrificing these things to develop their skills, it's not just in academia. I know people who worked hard on their Math, others worked hard at the Track/Sports, others worked at music instruments, and other activities and became top in our school. Sure, they had higher nerd status than the rest because they spent more time studying than socializing - but trust me, they didn't miss much.

chickenpotpie 5y ago

Counter point: maybe the regular classrooms develop that culture because all the gifted students were removed and it creates an echo chamber and a self fulfilling prophecy.

fatjokes 5y ago
I'm skeptical. If the minority gifted* students could change the culture of the regular classroom the bullied nerd wouldn't be such a trope. *Let's say that by definition, gifted = a small top percentage of students.
- aaaxyz 5y ago
  You'd be surprised. Having 2-3 gifted students who can explain basic concepts to the "average" kids and help them with assignments takes a significant load off the teachers back (who can then focus on helping kids with serious learning difficulties).
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    I think this is more an argument for smaller class sizes and more individualized instruction, not necessarily eliminating honors classes altogether.
    - aaaxyz 5y ago
      There's a significant shortage of teachers in the US & Canada, especially for math & sciences, so I'm not sure how we could realistically reduce class sizes in the short to medium term
      - remarkEon 5y ago
        Yeah, fair point. I guess from my perspective (my sister is a teacher at a charter school in Iowa that does have lower class sizes and much better educational outcomes) smaller class sizes seem like such low hanging fruit if the objective is simply to improve learning, not over-specify some testing metric.
  - nscalf 5y ago
    This is a terrible approach to teaching. I’ve been in high school classes where I played the TA role, and when I couldn’t switch to another class I started skipping. It slows down the students who learn too quickly for the class, there’s no point for smart students to drill concepts as much as the others. As someone who was in equivalent programs in the US, I can tell you my experience was that most people in the normal classes didn’t really care, and that attitude is far more likely to discourage the 2-3 gifted students than it is for gifted students to somehow lift up all the other students. As others have said, gifted students weren’t just smarter students, they were mostly the students who cared.
  - forbiddenvoid 5y ago
    The 'gifted' students should not be forced (or expected) to offload the burden of instruction from the teacher.
  - kyboren 5y ago
    > Having 2-3 gifted students who can explain basic concepts to the "average" kids and help them with assignments takes a significant load off the teachers back Calling @treis who claimed[0] 4 days ago that "Nobody is talking about forcing the high achievers to do the teacher's job". Well, here ya go. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27563940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27563940
entityDev 5y ago
No, the more studious removed themselves to work at their chosen craft, and therefore can't be in two places at once.

failwhaleshark 5y ago

Independent of individual honors' programs, California's Gifted And Talented Education (GATE) program in the 80's and 90's, AFAICT, consisted solely of IQ tests, i.e., timed triangle arrangement tests. I didn't see any point to it other than spending taxpayer money and/or for the education department to tick a box that they had a GAT program. Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist wingnut, but a country should inventory its smartest students. I believe GAT programs are how it is done in the US. If this were the case, it seems plausible these students are tracked and recruited by intelligence (no pun intended) agencies and strategic opportunities later on if they meet certain criteria. Hypothetically, GAT data would feed such a human assets program.