6 ms·

> Let's see how they explain their trumpist ties The fact that they would need to explain such ties, even if they existed, before a court is part of the proble

> Let's see how they explain their trumpist ties The fact that they would need to explain such ties, even if they existed, before a court is part of the problem.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Is it? Turn it around, if a newspaper in the US was asked to explain ties to Xi Jinping or Putin before a court would that be of note? Because things like that do happen in US courts, and it would be very easy to go to jail if you had such associations and did things that would normally be protected, such as leaking national secrets or knowingly publishing false information, that would then be seen as national security infractions. You can argue that it's a bad thing, but this isn't something unieq to HK. In pretty much all of the world coordinating with geopolitical enemies puts you in hot water. Actually, coordinating with some Russian or Chinese officials is literally illegal in the US because of sanctions and may put you in jail, since it seems money was involved.
- Cyberdog 5y ago
  > Because things like that do happen in US courts [citation needed]
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Sure. The US has previously, by court order, inquired in the foreign status of press and required them to sign into the foreign entity list and then comply with restrictions : https://cpj.org/2019/07/several-foreign-news-outlets-required-to-register/ https://cpj.org/2019/07/several-foreign-news-outlets-require... As a matter of law they are forced to disclose these associations and subject to penalty if they do not. That can include criminal charges to individuals and has, during the Cold War, to people who "didn't disclose". I thought this was common knowledge?
    - hkmaxpro 5y ago
      HK has a NSL court tightly controlled by the CCP. Not comparable to the US legal system. And NSL has immediate seizure of all assets, forcing Apple Daily to close immediately. Anything like that in the US?
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        FARA would allow the US government to arrest every single reporter, so yes it can force immediate closure without prior judiciary approval. The US legal system in this case uses extreme selective enforcement. There is no need for it to be corrupted, the executive holds all of the power because it decides who to ignore and who to punish, and indeed it wields this power very selectively. So the end result is the same as if the judicial system was corrupt.
        hkmaxpro 5y ago
        > so yes it can force immediate closure without prior judiciary approval Has any company in the past decade been forced out of business by FARA before trial? Any case from among this list? https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/recent-cases https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/recent-cases Not apples to apples.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        During the Cold War, yes. As I said, this hasn't happened since the Cold War.
        hkmaxpro 5y ago
        Really? None of the prominent cases (during cold war or not) has forced any company out of business [0]. Some companies/individuals were required to register, and a few were fined, but nothing as drastic as you claimed. (“they could completely financially deprive the organization”) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act#Prominent_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Ac... And China Global Television Network was forced to register as a foreign agent in 2018 due to FARA. The fact that it is still running today in the US, without having all its assets seized, speaks a lot about how HK’s NSL is much harsher than US’s FARA. Your comparison doesn’t hold at all.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  >such as leaking national secrets or knowingly publishing false information, that would then be seen as national security infractions. Not really. News agencies publish leaked classified national secrets all the time and freely publish false information without penalty. News cannot steal the information, i.e. hacking into the Pentagon would be off limits (which is why Julian Assange is wanted), but if someone else steals it, they can publish it. Publishing stuff in Wikileaks documents is not illegal. Foreign journalists freely operate in the USA. RT certainly has an anti-American agenda. It gets to criticize and claim and publish false information and yes, even report leaked national secrets.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    This is not exactly true. RT does not freely operate in the US, it was forced in a court of law to register as a foreign agent. Legally the US government would have been able to arrest every single RT journalist beforehand and send them to jail for five years. So yes, in court, it was decided whether or not RT was an agent of the Russian government, which is exactly the question at had in the post I was replying to. This is not actually applied since the end of the Cold War, but legally per the Foreign Agents Registration Act if you don't register as a foreign agent despite being one, even without being notified you should, you are committing a crime can be convicted. So, for example, being in contact with Xi Jinping or his lackeys and engaging in political action without registering as a foreign is actually a crime. And yes, people were prosecuted for that. But that's beyond even the point that I was stating, as a matter of FARA a court can and does inquire about that. RT is not right now being pursued for it, but people in the US can be pursued for doing things such as lying or leaking national secrets, ie things that would normally be protected under the first amendment, if they are doing so in furtherance of the goals of a foreign government without registering officially beforehand. For a recent case, see the case of Elliot Brodly which was found guilty for engaging in lobbying for a foreign government. These laws in the US are very, very selectively enforced. The lack of prosecution of a certain entity doesn't mean anything. BBC reporters in the US are technically committing a federal offense by not registering as foreign agents, but the government will never prosecute them for that. RT, on the other hand, was forced to register, and WEB Dubois was prosecuted for even less on the same laws.

> Let's see how they explain their trumpist ties The fact that they would need to explain such ties, even if they existed, before a court is part of the problem.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Is it? Turn it around, if a newspaper in the US was asked to explain ties to Xi Jinping or Putin before a court would that be of note? Because things like that do happen in US courts, and it would be very easy to go to jail if you had such associations and did things that would normally be protected, such as leaking national secrets or knowingly publishing false information, that would then be seen as national security infractions. You can argue that it's a bad thing, but this isn't something unieq to HK. In pretty much all of the world coordinating with geopolitical enemies puts you in hot water. Actually, coordinating with some Russian or Chinese officials is literally illegal in the US because of sanctions and may put you in jail, since it seems money was involved.

Cyberdog 5y ago
> Because things like that do happen in US courts [citation needed]
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Sure. The US has previously, by court order, inquired in the foreign status of press and required them to sign into the foreign entity list and then comply with restrictions : https://cpj.org/2019/07/several-foreign-news-outlets-required-to-register/ https://cpj.org/2019/07/several-foreign-news-outlets-require... As a matter of law they are forced to disclose these associations and subject to penalty if they do not. That can include criminal charges to individuals and has, during the Cold War, to people who "didn't disclose". I thought this was common knowledge?
  - hkmaxpro 5y ago
    HK has a NSL court tightly controlled by the CCP. Not comparable to the US legal system. And NSL has immediate seizure of all assets, forcing Apple Daily to close immediately. Anything like that in the US?
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      FARA would allow the US government to arrest every single reporter, so yes it can force immediate closure without prior judiciary approval. The US legal system in this case uses extreme selective enforcement. There is no need for it to be corrupted, the executive holds all of the power because it decides who to ignore and who to punish, and indeed it wields this power very selectively. So the end result is the same as if the judicial system was corrupt.
      - hkmaxpro 5y ago
        > so yes it can force immediate closure without prior judiciary approval Has any company in the past decade been forced out of business by FARA before trial? Any case from among this list? https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/recent-cases https://www.justice.gov/nsd-fara/recent-cases Not apples to apples.
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        During the Cold War, yes. As I said, this hasn't happened since the Cold War.
        hkmaxpro 5y ago
        Really? None of the prominent cases (during cold war or not) has forced any company out of business [0]. Some companies/individuals were required to register, and a few were fined, but nothing as drastic as you claimed. (“they could completely financially deprive the organization”) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act#Prominent_cases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Ac... And China Global Television Network was forced to register as a foreign agent in 2018 due to FARA. The fact that it is still running today in the US, without having all its assets seized, speaks a lot about how HK’s NSL is much harsher than US’s FARA. Your comparison doesn’t hold at all.
MattGaiser 5y ago
>such as leaking national secrets or knowingly publishing false information, that would then be seen as national security infractions. Not really. News agencies publish leaked classified national secrets all the time and freely publish false information without penalty. News cannot steal the information, i.e. hacking into the Pentagon would be off limits (which is why Julian Assange is wanted), but if someone else steals it, they can publish it. Publishing stuff in Wikileaks documents is not illegal. Foreign journalists freely operate in the USA. RT certainly has an anti-American agenda. It gets to criticize and claim and publish false information and yes, even report leaked national secrets.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  This is not exactly true. RT does not freely operate in the US, it was forced in a court of law to register as a foreign agent. Legally the US government would have been able to arrest every single RT journalist beforehand and send them to jail for five years. So yes, in court, it was decided whether or not RT was an agent of the Russian government, which is exactly the question at had in the post I was replying to. This is not actually applied since the end of the Cold War, but legally per the Foreign Agents Registration Act if you don't register as a foreign agent despite being one, even without being notified you should, you are committing a crime can be convicted. So, for example, being in contact with Xi Jinping or his lackeys and engaging in political action without registering as a foreign is actually a crime. And yes, people were prosecuted for that. But that's beyond even the point that I was stating, as a matter of FARA a court can and does inquire about that. RT is not right now being pursued for it, but people in the US can be pursued for doing things such as lying or leaking national secrets, ie things that would normally be protected under the first amendment, if they are doing so in furtherance of the goals of a foreign government without registering officially beforehand. For a recent case, see the case of Elliot Brodly which was found guilty for engaging in lobbying for a foreign government. These laws in the US are very, very selectively enforced. The lack of prosecution of a certain entity doesn't mean anything. BBC reporters in the US are technically committing a federal offense by not registering as foreign agents, but the government will never prosecute them for that. RT, on the other hand, was forced to register, and WEB Dubois was prosecuted for even less on the same laws.