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I had a close circle of friends that were pretty anti-establishment in ~2010. We bonded over beers and whiskey, and deep discussions of the news media control

by desine 5y ago

I had a close circle of friends that were pretty anti-establishment in ~2010. We bonded over beers and whiskey, and deep discussions of the news media control of information and thought, and the lobbying power of big pharma. Many of them don't really talk to me much anymore. I've grown more skeptical of the news media and big pharma. A few of them are silent only because they're dead after moving from recreational prescription opiates to heroin and eventual overdose. But the majority that I don't see anymore, I suspect their reasoning is that I'm too far "alt-right", or "anti-science". At least based on their social media posts before I deleted my accounts. I still don't trust big pharma any farther than I can throw a multi-billion dollar industry. And I still believe the same logic we all shared, that the news media's top shareholders and board members are not primarily interested in the free exchange of information. I don't doubt that I've shifted positions in 10 years. Though, I feel they have somehow shifted position even more. It saddens me to have lost those close friendships. I think society is changing at a more rapid pace than it did previously. The internet and social media are likely partially to blame. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. It's my day off and I've had a couple afternoon beers while doing chores. Probably just getting something off my mind on what was one of the few remaining rationalist websites. Though I feel like even here the tide is changing. Sad times, friends.

whatshisface 5y ago
It's pretty depressing when friendships end over something as shallow as political opinions but I've seen it several times. One day people are going to have to realize that your allegiance to the guy right in front of you matters more than your allegiance to some guy who wouldn't even want to meet you if he ever heard of you.
- petertodd 5y ago
  Political opinions aren't just allegiance to some guy you haven't met. That's party allegiance. True, core, political opinions are much more about allegiance to principals and ways of thinking. IMO that's much more important than allegiance to individuals. If I witnessed a family member commit murder, what's ultimately my core political views are what would determine if I did or did not turn them in for it. And I probably would turn them in.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
It is possible, and rational, to be skeptical and trust others simultaneously. Life is more fun if you do not believe everyone is out to get you, and that there are shades of gray.
- desine 5y ago
  I dislike that phrase. I've heard it a lot. Believing everyone is out to get you. Nobody is out to get you, because you're a nobody. There's no grand conspiracy to take down some internet shitposter. People are out for themselves. And if someone is in your way, and takes some hit because you have the Chevy Suburban and they're on a Honda SuperCub, so be it. It's not that you hate their beautiful red and beige paintjob, it's that they were in the wrong lane at the wrong time when you decided to overtake whoever was in front of you. Colloquial pronouns, of course.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    That is a good point. I guess a better way of saying it is that I assume (or hope) most people are behaving mostly well most of the time and at least in the short term interest of most people. This is also an assumption that is a luxury due to me living and growing up in a stable and prosperous country, and I can certainly see different circumstances producing different mindsets. But I also think there is plenty of good being done by organizations (at least the ones I’m familiar with in the US) to justify giving them some benefit of the doubt.
    - briefcomment 5y ago
      I think this is naive. Individuals are probably overwhelmingly good, but a corporation generally gets away with as much as it possibly can. I think this is because you can diffuse personal responsibility to a much greater extent when you are acting on behalf of a corporation. Corporations probably do good things insofar as they provide them cover to act increasingly selfishly. An individual on the other hand runs into their own conscience much more frequently when they're acting on their own behalf.
dalbasal 5y ago
In the spirit of rifting and drifting... If you're losing friends over shifting position about science, economics or somesuch then you're doing it wrong. I've maintained close friendships to people who've gone literal flat-earth for several year spans. It's not the content that drives rifts, it's delivery. After work bar chats with friends are even better when the friends disagree, I find. If you can't hold a pleasant adversarial conversation, I reckon you can't be good at skepticism. The two are linked.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I think you're assuming that his delivery was wrong, when in fact it's quite likely that a group formed over shared opinions would have some fairly proactive ideological policing.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    Key word is "friends."
- briefcomment 5y ago
  The key is humility. By accepting there's a possibility you are wrong and letting others know, you can get away with most beliefs.
- desine 5y ago
  I agree with your statements. But it's not that I am shunned from the group, it's that some have self-shunned. What was a batch of friends that could fill a backyard BBQ with 30+ people is down to about 10. I'm still the most left field of the bunch. There's still a literal communist (which I find abhorrent) that I love and see at least once a month. But there's also a bunch of people I really enjoyed hanging out with that I now only see rarely, and definitely not when I host an event.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    I think what you may be onto there, is that some of those people were not really your friends, in the sense you thought they were. The ones that don't come over anymore are the ones that think about it and decide they don't want to see you bad enough to take the time. Doesn't mean they hate or despise you. They may still consider themselves your friend, but they're not, at least in the way you had thought. Ten loyal friends is a big number :-)
nceqs3 5y ago
You cite no real evidence of 'big pharma' evil. What specifically is so 'evil' about an industry that saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of people every year? You will hate 'big pharma' until you get breast cancer...

by desine 5y ago

whatshisface 5y ago

It's pretty depressing when friendships end over something as shallow as political opinions but I've seen it several times. One day people are going to have to realize that your allegiance to the guy right in front of you matters more than your allegiance to some guy who wouldn't even want to meet you if he ever heard of you.

petertodd 5y ago
Political opinions aren't just allegiance to some guy you haven't met. That's party allegiance. True, core, political opinions are much more about allegiance to principals and ways of thinking. IMO that's much more important than allegiance to individuals. If I witnessed a family member commit murder, what's ultimately my core political views are what would determine if I did or did not turn them in for it. And I probably would turn them in.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

It is possible, and rational, to be skeptical and trust others simultaneously. Life is more fun if you do not believe everyone is out to get you, and that there are shades of gray.

desine 5y ago
I dislike that phrase. I've heard it a lot. Believing everyone is out to get you. Nobody is out to get you, because you're a nobody. There's no grand conspiracy to take down some internet shitposter. People are out for themselves. And if someone is in your way, and takes some hit because you have the Chevy Suburban and they're on a Honda SuperCub, so be it. It's not that you hate their beautiful red and beige paintjob, it's that they were in the wrong lane at the wrong time when you decided to overtake whoever was in front of you. Colloquial pronouns, of course.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  That is a good point. I guess a better way of saying it is that I assume (or hope) most people are behaving mostly well most of the time and at least in the short term interest of most people. This is also an assumption that is a luxury due to me living and growing up in a stable and prosperous country, and I can certainly see different circumstances producing different mindsets. But I also think there is plenty of good being done by organizations (at least the ones I’m familiar with in the US) to justify giving them some benefit of the doubt.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    I think this is naive. Individuals are probably overwhelmingly good, but a corporation generally gets away with as much as it possibly can. I think this is because you can diffuse personal responsibility to a much greater extent when you are acting on behalf of a corporation. Corporations probably do good things insofar as they provide them cover to act increasingly selfishly. An individual on the other hand runs into their own conscience much more frequently when they're acting on their own behalf.

dalbasal 5y ago

In the spirit of rifting and drifting... If you're losing friends over shifting position about science, economics or somesuch then you're doing it wrong. I've maintained close friendships to people who've gone literal flat-earth for several year spans. It's not the content that drives rifts, it's delivery. After work bar chats with friends are even better when the friends disagree, I find. If you can't hold a pleasant adversarial conversation, I reckon you can't be good at skepticism. The two are linked.

whatshisface 5y ago
I think you're assuming that his delivery was wrong, when in fact it's quite likely that a group formed over shared opinions would have some fairly proactive ideological policing.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  Key word is "friends."
briefcomment 5y ago
The key is humility. By accepting there's a possibility you are wrong and letting others know, you can get away with most beliefs.
desine 5y ago
I agree with your statements. But it's not that I am shunned from the group, it's that some have self-shunned. What was a batch of friends that could fill a backyard BBQ with 30+ people is down to about 10. I'm still the most left field of the bunch. There's still a literal communist (which I find abhorrent) that I love and see at least once a month. But there's also a bunch of people I really enjoyed hanging out with that I now only see rarely, and definitely not when I host an event.
- spfzero 5y ago
  I think what you may be onto there, is that some of those people were not really your friends, in the sense you thought they were. The ones that don't come over anymore are the ones that think about it and decide they don't want to see you bad enough to take the time. Doesn't mean they hate or despise you. They may still consider themselves your friend, but they're not, at least in the way you had thought. Ten loyal friends is a big number :-)

nceqs3 5y ago

You cite no real evidence of 'big pharma' evil. What specifically is so 'evil' about an industry that saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of people every year? You will hate 'big pharma' until you get breast cancer...