4 ms·

Yep. BlackLivesMatter is semantically overloaded. There's the notion of BlackLivesMatter, of which only real racists disagree. Then there's the organization Bla

Yep. BlackLivesMatter is semantically overloaded. There's the notion of BlackLivesMatter, of which only real racists disagree. Then there's the organization BlackLivesMatter, which has some very anti-traditional-western views that undermine the name.

slipframe 5y ago
It's an ideal meme for people who want to employ the motte-and-bailey tactic. The face-value meaning of the words is unassailable, an impregnable motte that only the most violent of racists would disagree with.
reidjs 5y ago
I’m confused by this, how are you supposed to communicate a precise agenda in a hashtag? The movement has to do with systemic racism in America. Think of BLM like a “hook” in writing. Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy?
- slipframe 5y ago
  > Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy? Here, you have fallen back on "the motte." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
- username90 5y ago
  > Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy? No more interesting than the fact that statement of another obvious fact (that all lives matter) has caused just as much controversy. At the end of the day these two statements are just dog whistles for what allegiance you hold and the actual meaning of the sentence doesn't matter much.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > these two statements are just dog whistles for what allegiance you hold and the actual meaning of the sentence doesn't matter much. The horror? I'll be honest, I don't see what the problem with short labels that express an ideological affiliation. People who aren't "pro-life" aren't pro-murder, and people who aren't "pro-choice" do not oppose choice in all instances. We all know what they mean though.
    - username90 5y ago
      The person asked why such statements could cause controversy, I explained why, your post doesn't make sense in this thread.
    - slipframe 5y ago
      The problem here is pigeon holing. When you are eager to classify people fast and efficiently into a small number of bins, you trample on a lot of nuance. For instance, suppose I thought abortion should be legal for the first N weeks, but require case-by-case approval from a panel of ethicists after N weeks. Does that put me in the pro-life bin or the pro-choice bin? Probably more the latter than the former, but it's certainly not a pure 'choice' position to have on the matter.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  how are you supposed to communicate a precise agenda in a hashtag You're not. That's the problem. In the case of #5DemandsNot1Less there is really no context in the hashtag itself to determine its meaning until you learn more about the movement. It is a pointer to the beliefs of the movement, not the beliefs themselves. With #BlackLivesMatter, that is not the case. The hashtag has its own fairly obvious semantic weight that is not an accurate pointer back to all of the specific beliefs of the political movement.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  Do you also believe that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is just a group of people who are for the ethical treatment of animals? Are you unaware they have literally funded terrorism? Were you never taught not to judge a book by its cover?

slipframe 5y ago

It's an ideal meme for people who want to employ the motte-and-bailey tactic. The face-value meaning of the words is unassailable, an impregnable motte that only the most violent of racists would disagree with.

reidjs 5y ago

I’m confused by this, how are you supposed to communicate a precise agenda in a hashtag? The movement has to do with systemic racism in America. Think of BLM like a “hook” in writing. Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy?

slipframe 5y ago
> Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy? Here, you have fallen back on "the motte." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
username90 5y ago
> Isn’t it interesting that a statement of an obvious fact (that black lives matter) has caused so much controversy? No more interesting than the fact that statement of another obvious fact (that all lives matter) has caused just as much controversy. At the end of the day these two statements are just dog whistles for what allegiance you hold and the actual meaning of the sentence doesn't matter much.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > these two statements are just dog whistles for what allegiance you hold and the actual meaning of the sentence doesn't matter much. The horror? I'll be honest, I don't see what the problem with short labels that express an ideological affiliation. People who aren't "pro-life" aren't pro-murder, and people who aren't "pro-choice" do not oppose choice in all instances. We all know what they mean though.
  - username90 5y ago
    The person asked why such statements could cause controversy, I explained why, your post doesn't make sense in this thread.
  - slipframe 5y ago
    The problem here is pigeon holing. When you are eager to classify people fast and efficiently into a small number of bins, you trample on a lot of nuance. For instance, suppose I thought abortion should be legal for the first N weeks, but require case-by-case approval from a panel of ethicists after N weeks. Does that put me in the pro-life bin or the pro-choice bin? Probably more the latter than the former, but it's certainly not a pure 'choice' position to have on the matter.
ineedasername 5y ago
how are you supposed to communicate a precise agenda in a hashtag You're not. That's the problem. In the case of #5DemandsNot1Less there is really no context in the hashtag itself to determine its meaning until you learn more about the movement. It is a pointer to the beliefs of the movement, not the beliefs themselves. With #BlackLivesMatter, that is not the case. The hashtag has its own fairly obvious semantic weight that is not an accurate pointer back to all of the specific beliefs of the political movement.
yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
Do you also believe that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is just a group of people who are for the ethical treatment of animals? Are you unaware they have literally funded terrorism? Were you never taught not to judge a book by its cover?