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What is meant is “abolish the police state”. The US throws more people in jail than any other country by several orders of magnitude. To get to where we should

What is meant is “abolish the police state”. The US throws more people in jail than any other country by several orders of magnitude. To get to where we should be, we do effectively need to abolish the system as it exists today. Most cities spend far more on policing than they do on prevention; much of this driven by self-serving lobbying on behalf of police unions. Nobody except anarchists is claiming that we don’t need police; but a lot of people are saying we don’t need these police. Let’s define the role of police in society and severely curtail their monopoly on violence.

kspacewalk2 5y ago
If "abolish the police state" was meant, "abolish the police state" should have been said. You don't need these police, wonderful. Propose changes, phase them in gradually to prove that they're better than the status quo (we can't just go ahead and assume that with no evidence now can we), work out the kinks so that we're not left with a crime wave in the interim while your bold new ideas are being perfected. I'm non-ironically all for that. The obvious one to try first is funding teams of a police officer paired with a mental health nurse, with self defence training of course. Don't defund anything and anyone to do this; it may or may not work and then you'll need to refund police and that'll be awkward. Struggling to understand how "severely curtail their monopoly on violence" can be meant in a positive way. Who do you propose should also engage in violence lawfully? People's Self Defence Militia Units?
- wayoutthere 5y ago
  I live in an inner city neighborhood with a large black population. During the George Floyd protests last year, police drove through my neighborhood (which was not rioting in any form) firing tear gas from an armored vehicle at basically anyone standing on the street. They chased down and beat anyone of color they could get their hands on. I saw this with my own eyes; it’s not propaganda. It would be one thing if more police actually stopped crime. They don’t. The murder rate in my city is driven by the fact that the clearance rate for homicide is well below 50%. Much of this is driven by distrust of the police and their “crack skulls and ask questions later” attitude. The police are largely ineffective at stopping crime because in many cities, they literally laugh at you when you ask to make a police report.
  - kspacewalk2 5y ago
    My comments were a criticism of reform methodology, not a dismissal of the need for reform. There is plenty wrong with police in North America, but defunding it and hoping for the best will make it worse, if anything.
    - wayoutthere 5y ago
      Part of the problem is that the police are run like a gang. Corruption is rampant in most departments and officers do not hold each other accountable and are effectively above the law. Union leaders often have more sway than police chiefs in major cities. You have to clear out the rot before you can have meaningful change. Otherwise they’ll just sabotage the reform like they have in the past. Many cities allocate far too high a percentage of their budgets to policing. Programs that are diversionary and reduce crime (education for one) are frequently cut in order to give ever-increasing money to police departments that show zero ROI. If there was more of a focus on “doing the best you can with what you get” like every other city service, it wouldn’t be so bad but right now police dominate city budgets in every city in the US.

kspacewalk2 5y ago

If "abolish the police state" was meant, "abolish the police state" should have been said. You don't need these police, wonderful. Propose changes, phase them in gradually to prove that they're better than the status quo (we can't just go ahead and assume that with no evidence now can we), work out the kinks so that we're not left with a crime wave in the interim while your bold new ideas are being perfected. I'm non-ironically all for that. The obvious one to try first is funding teams of a police officer paired with a mental health nurse, with self defence training of course. Don't defund anything and anyone to do this; it may or may not work and then you'll need to refund police and that'll be awkward. Struggling to understand how "severely curtail their monopoly on violence" can be meant in a positive way. Who do you propose should also engage in violence lawfully? People's Self Defence Militia Units?

wayoutthere 5y ago
I live in an inner city neighborhood with a large black population. During the George Floyd protests last year, police drove through my neighborhood (which was not rioting in any form) firing tear gas from an armored vehicle at basically anyone standing on the street. They chased down and beat anyone of color they could get their hands on. I saw this with my own eyes; it’s not propaganda. It would be one thing if more police actually stopped crime. They don’t. The murder rate in my city is driven by the fact that the clearance rate for homicide is well below 50%. Much of this is driven by distrust of the police and their “crack skulls and ask questions later” attitude. The police are largely ineffective at stopping crime because in many cities, they literally laugh at you when you ask to make a police report.
- kspacewalk2 5y ago
  My comments were a criticism of reform methodology, not a dismissal of the need for reform. There is plenty wrong with police in North America, but defunding it and hoping for the best will make it worse, if anything.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
    Part of the problem is that the police are run like a gang. Corruption is rampant in most departments and officers do not hold each other accountable and are effectively above the law. Union leaders often have more sway than police chiefs in major cities. You have to clear out the rot before you can have meaningful change. Otherwise they’ll just sabotage the reform like they have in the past. Many cities allocate far too high a percentage of their budgets to policing. Programs that are diversionary and reduce crime (education for one) are frequently cut in order to give ever-increasing money to police departments that show zero ROI. If there was more of a focus on “doing the best you can with what you get” like every other city service, it wouldn’t be so bad but right now police dominate city budgets in every city in the US.